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In corresponding with a fellow Home Theatre enthusiast, I mention that I was seriously considering purchasing the Naim DVD5. This was his reply ...
"I know Naim, just don't like the sound, sorry. Almost as bad as Linn I'm afraid. It's just a coloured (especially the midband) wall of sound - no imaging at all. While I have only heard a brief demo of a Naim CD player (in an all Naim system) and the DVD5 playing DVD's I have to say that I strongly disagree with his assessment. A piano selection on CD I heard played on a Naim system sounded as uncoloured and natural as I have ever heard. I would like to hear the opinions of Naim owners about imaging and coloring of sound from Naim CD players and the DVD5. Thanks. Bob |
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quote: Television - Sony KV-36XBR400 (HDTV compatible) Receiver - Denon 4802 Amplifier - Classe CAV-180 via pre-outs on Denon Speakers - Martin Logan Aeon, Cinema, Scripts Subwoofer - Velodyne HGS12 Sanus CF5 Audio Racks Harmonic Technology interconnects and speaker wires Richard Gray Power Conditioners and Pole Pig Dedicated circuit with isolated ground I am an HDTV enthusiast ... if a program is not broadcast in HDTV I will not watch it ... so I want the very highest PQ that I can get from a DVD player. The DVD5 is one of the few DVD players that I have seen that produces a decent NTSC picture, especially considering that I plan on purchasing a larger viewing device some time in the next 2 or 3 years. And the DVD5 will have a built in high quality scaler available in the near future. And considering my system, I want quality sound. I know a separate CD player would be best, but there is a limit to my budget and the Naim seems to be one of the few DVD players that will give good sound quality. Bob |
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Bob
Naim digs into recordings and brings out the "music". The Pace, Rythum & Timing (PRaT )thing is no joke, it sums up the life and verve in the music. Naim is often accussed of presenting these musical details in a "flat" manner because Naim does not emphasise non music effects such as giant 3 dimensional staging and placing bits of the music in a very deep image which makes them sound like they are coming from "the bottom of your garden". If that is what you seek don't buy Naim but if you want a guarantee that your foot will always tap and that the musical balance will be faithfully portrayed along with the beat, then Naim will fit the bill. There is off course a reasonable stereo image aswell and a great sense of emotion coming across. The DVD5 is described as beinging designed to deliver CD replay on a par with the CD5 which does all the things described above IN A NAIM system. I don't know what bolting it onto, for example a Denon amp, will do to the sound and would advise you to insist on demoing that if CD replay as described is what you want. regards GEOFF "Just trying to make a NAIM for myself" |
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I do agree that Naim is not really that imaging ... but I now listen to music with my ears and my heart so I don't care whether it is imaging or not.
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I am getting used to listening to music live and unamplified. My best friend's daughter plays in a University Orchestra. Most of the concerts are in a hall that was designed for acoustic perfection ... it is renouned in North America as one of the best. If I understand you correctly if I play back a CD recording from one of her concerts on the DVD5 it will give me a feeling that I am in that concert hall. The bottom line is I am looking for faithful reproduction ... I want to get the feeling that the instruments are in the room. The feeling that the sound is actually coming from the instruments and not speakers.
My HT dealer told me that imaging of any system can be improved immensely just by moving the speakers away from the wall. He said that Naim is sometimes demoed with the speakers right against the wall. By the way, it is the Classe amp that is providing the power to my Martin Logans (the Classe amp improved the sound unbelievably from the when I was using the Denon to drive the speakers) ... I can arrange a CD5 (they will not be getting a demo DVD5 for 2 months due to the shortage) to be hooked up to Classe electronics with B&W speakers. Bob |
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quote: Bob You really need to demo the DVD5 (or at least a CD5X (not "i") to see if it does what you want. Naim is certainly good at faithfully transmitting the sound and pace etc. Wanting to get the feeling that the instruments are in the room is a little difficult to advise on. With Naim you will get the "in room" as far as true sound and the life in the music is concerned, but you won't get an orchestra that stretches from wall to wall, it will be spread out, but only in between the speakers. quote: That is misleading and to me a silly comment to make. For a start Naim brand speakers are voiced to sound correct when placed up against a wall, and in fact will not sound right if you move them out from a wall more than a small amount. On the other hand a lot of freestanding speakers from other makers such as B&W DO need to be out from the walls, but that is not to improve imaging but rather to get the right bass level since being close to a wall would make their bass sound overblown. The "imaging" qualities of a speaker are to some extent inherent in the way it's design and materials come together BUT the room it is in, the placement of the listening position, the angle at which the speaker pair are placed to the listener and most importantly the chracteristics of the electronics have a big role to play in the final image you hear. The only real way to find out what you will hear is to do a several day demo test in your own home. Even a shop demo will only give you a first impression of the musical presentation which tells you if it is worth asking for a home demo. This is especially true if as in your case you have a very sepcific musical requirement that you want from your system. Hope that helps regards GEOFF "Just trying to make a NAIM for myself" |
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I had a chance on my lunch break to audition the CD5 at my HT dealer, who is just a few short blocks from the office. I took 3 favorite CD's with me.
I was blown away by the clear, clean sound! I was hearing details in the music I had not heard before. And yes, was tapping my foot to the music. If the DVD5 sounds as good, then I am definitely sold. However, this was on an all Naim system ... how the DVD5 will sound on a system similar to mine at the store or better yet on my own system remains to be heard! Oh, and by the way 3 DVD5's came into the store as I was about to leave ... 2 pre-sold and one they are holding for me. Unfortunately I don't have all the money saved to take it right away. I can only give them a down payment. Bob |
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Bob,
I cant say that the DVD5 is 'exactly' as a cd5,as I dont have a cd5, but what I can tell you is that is DEFINITELY a 'Naim' player. What I am prepared to say is that I set out to do a comparison between it and my CDI. I ended up just listening to the music, (as I always do) because I had chosen a disc I hadn't heard in a while, & ended up thinking 'stuff' the comparrison.. the music is to much fun! |
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Steve,
I was enjoying listening to one of the CD's I had with me so much that I was very tempted to take an extended break from work so that I could hear to the entire disc! Bob |
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Bob - hi. In previous corerspondence with NAIM, on a different topic,this was a comment they made abou tthe DVD5:
"...The fact that we have managed to make a DVD player that plays CDs at a quality a little better than a CD5i speaks volumes here. It is quite some feat!!" Hope this helps. Robmark. |
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Well, I can say that at least Naim speakers are capable of soundstaging.
I can't imagine the DVD5 lacking soundstage as the main part of soundstaging is done by your speakers and your AVR. So I wouldn't worry about the DVD5 in that respect. What I am a bit bewondered about is you being such an HD fan and then going for DVDs. Why are you not using a HD Player? As far as I know you can buy D-VHS (isn't that the HD capable player?) in the US and Canada and the material to play on them. OK, they are tapes and not discs but they are HD. So how come you are going for a DVDP? The DVD5 is said to be one of the best DVDPs out there and the best CDP in a DVDP as well. So if the CD5 blew you away, the DVD5 stands a good chance to do the same. Why don't you borrow the DVD5 for a few days from your Naim dealer? Or does he not do that? |
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quote: 1. I think D-VHS is a dead end format. It never made much sense to me. Why bring out a format using tape, when tape is virtually dead. There relatively few movies avaiable in D-VHS. You cannot rent D-VHS movies. The ONLY reason I even considered buying one is to record (via by HD PVR). Here in Canada we have a television station, Movie Central High Definition that broadcasts movies 24/7 in HDTV, many in OAR and some with DD5.1 (Hollywood has been parinoid about releasing HD movies with DD5.1, fearing piracy, but are statting to loosen up and release more with DD5.1). 2. I will definitely be buying a High Definition DVD player. However, even though they will begin sales in North America late this year I will not be rushing out to buy one. First because we have another "Beta vs VHS" situation shaping up. No one knows whether Blu-Ray or HD DVD will be the winner. I don't want to be stuck with the "wrong" player. And scond it will probably be 2 years or so before there are a significant number of movies in either of these formats. But I do know one will eventually succeed and put an end to regular DVD's. I know from posts some wonder if either format will survive ... I have absolutely no doubt in my mind about High Defintion DVD's survival. Why? Because this is going to be a HUGE cash cow for companies like Sony. They will be rushing to re-release most of their movies in HD. Companies like Sony do not make most of their profits in the consumer market from selling electronic gear. The big profits come from selling DVD's, CD's and VHS tapes. 3. I have an old Pioneer Elite CLV-90 LD/DVD/CD player. It pre-dates progressive scan and DTS. The CD sound quality is not great. So, for 2 years I have been trying to save for a good DVD player. I had been planing to buy the Arcam FMJ DV27A, but it seemed every time I had just about saved enough for it, something else came up and I had to start saving again. In some ways that is fortunate, because I am convinced that the DVD5 is a superior player both in picture and sound quality. 4. Even when I purchase a Blu-Ray or HD DVD player I will be left with a very fine CD player. It could be some time before we see a HD player that has the sound quality of Naim in that price range. 5. One can wait forever for new technology to come along. and never buy anything, because their is ALWAYS something better coming down the road. 6. I don't believe my dealer loans out equipment, especially the DVD5 which is in such short supply. They cannot even get a demo for themselves ... 2 months is the estimate. Anyway I can listen to it on equipment appoximating mine at their store - Classe electronics (which I have) and B&W speakers. I am sure that if it sounds great on that equipment it will on mine. As for picture quality ... I have seen it via a excellent quality DLP projector on a 6 foot screen - PQ was outstanding. So on my Sony 36XBR400 via component interconnects it will blow my current player out of the room! Bob PS - By the way, why has this forum been sooo painfully slow the last 2 days. The main Naim site if as fast as usual, but the forum is at slow dial-up modem speed!!! |
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It's odd about Naim imagary.
I tried a £150 AV amp (in stereo only) in place of my usual 72/180. I was using my Mission 753Fs as usual, simply swapping the speaker cables over between the boxes. I bunged on a few film DVDs and music CDs. The sound quality was absolutely, unbelievably awful! Tinny, shrill, noticably distorted and completely unreal. But, my god, could that cheap AV box image! It made every sound needle sharp in space. It dragged ears (and eyes) to every detail and etched it in chrome plate. But I just couldn't live with the overall sound quality. Not a single music track was listenable. Reconnecting my Naim amps was a revelation in how completely real, natural and warm film can sound. No more pinpoint imagary. But somehow it actually seemed more real that way. Despite having lusted after pin-point imagary for most of my hifi-enjoying life I was left rather wondering about the advantages of such tack-sharp imagary. I took the AV amp back and obtained a refund. Now I'm left wondering what the E800 is going to do to my system's sound quality on film.  Nime |
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Ah yes, the dichotomy of different approaches to 'presentation'.
I would've been very interested to hear of your comments if the comparo had been full 5.1 movie surround rather than 2 channel stereo, as far as if the pinpoint imagery outweighed the warmer sound, in that scenario. Best John...  This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-) |
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While I won't be able to compare the returned AV amp I hope to be in a postion to try an E800 soon. Using my present Naim/Mission stereo system in a 4.1 set-up. Possibly using my old Mk 1 Kans as rears.
Quite how a DSP-E800 will affect warmth and imagary I cannot even guess at the moment. Regards Nime |
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OK. HiDef, I was just asking because I heard that there are actually quite an amount of movies out on D-VHS, but seemingly I was informed wrongly. And as it has been around for two years or so, I reckoned you might have gone down that road.
But you are right of course, there may still be quite some waiting time involved and if your funds allow, I could imagine a really good DVDP could produce a picture which could at least compare to poorly mastered 720p movies. By the way, do you receiver full 1920x1080 or only the 720p or 1440x1080? What's OAR? Unfortunaly in Germany you get absolutly no HD feeds, only for special events and hence there are almost no HD products available (sat receivers or similar products). @Nime: I can relate to your AVR experience. But with me, it was more about the speakers. A friend of mine has dead cheap speakers which really are not too great for music. They sound OK, but no resolution at all. More like a car stereo. Warm and nice but no where near the quality of a good Naim speaker...or even the worst Naim speaker. But he has placed them idealy in the room (the rears being above and behind the listener whereas mine unfortunatly are next to me) and the soundstage is just great. All of that achieved with a system of which the most expensive part is the Philips Pronto remote control! But it's involving. Mine however is revealing, sometimes painfully revealing as now I can't listen to ex-MP3s anymore, but the soundstage is not as big. Of course this is due to the placement of the rears also, but the speakers themselves also add their part. I think they simply create a too clear picture or too sharp picture of what they each are displaying, that you kind of see the speaker's individual picture instead of one big one. Do you know what I mean? But then again, Thursday, I watched Human Traffic Remixed and suddenly everything sounded just perfect. Sometimes a cheap system would be the better choice to enjoy an average movie and average music, but when the software is really good, that's where a really good system pays of. |
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Alex
I think most film producers would be rather disappointed if they heard that their multi-million sound tracks were not considered "very good software". I have been enjoying film soundtracks in full range, high quality stereo until now. Anything better than I have now would be (almost) like gilding the lily. The level of articulacy on dialogue is excellent. The sound quality on film music and sound effects leaves nothing to be desired. I'm hoping the DSP-E800 will add the extra dimension of surround sound without losing an ounce of my present sound quality. I'll leave the tizz and boom surround systems to the AV show thanks. Nime |
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Alex B.
1. I may be wrong, but I think there are still less than 100 movies available on D-VHS. There are places in the USA where you can rent them, but I don't know of any in Canada ... certainly not in Vancouver. 2. High Definition is broadcast in 1080i and 720p depending on the American or Canadian network. 720p (ABC & FOX) works best for sports where there is a lot of action. 1080i for documentary type programs (all other networks including Movie Central HD). I don't think you would notice near as a dramatic improvement in PQ in Europe as here in North America where we have been stuck with the worst television system in the world ... blurry vision NTSC. I have always envied those uses the PAL system. I have had a hatred of SDTV for years and could not wait for HiDef. But I can live with NTSC DVD's which do not have the terrible ghosting and poor colour rendition you get with broadcast programming. If a movie is properly mastered, viewed on a high end DVD player, like the DVD5, the PQ is quite acceptable - especially if viewed on a smaller screen like mine (widescreen 34"). And you can get most movies in OAR as opposed to 4:3 from television broadcasts. 3. OAR - Original Aspect Ratio ... the same widescreen format that you would see in a theatre. Unfortunately too many HD transfers are made to 16:9. I have been amused by the lack of encouragement from NAIM forum members to my decision to purchase a DVD5. While, not negative, all comments seem have been very cautious to say the least. I think that I am going to be very happy with my DVD5 and will get many years of enjoyment from it. The salesamn at my HT dealer thinks that when it comes to soundstaging and imaging the Japanese have got it all wrong. He said something to the effect. who wants to listen to a 6 foot wide guitar. Regarding multi-channel music - talking to the rep from Naim, he did not see much future for mulitchannel SACD of DVD Audio, but he did think 2 channel DVD A might. Bob |
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quote: I think one of the reasons that Naim has managed to do that is the fact that they have found a way to COMPLETELY turn off the video cicuitry when playing CD's. Apparently it is not that hard to turn it off ... the real problem is turning it back on once you do tunr it off. The Naim rep told me that mainly companies claim to turn off the video circuitry, but in fact they do not COMPLETELY turn it off. Bob |
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Well, I do think a lot of DVDs are far from taking full advantage of the technology available. PQ is one big aspect. Hardly any DVD really uses the full quality available to DVDs. Many don't even use up all the space on the DVDs but rather put useless Bonus Features, multiple languages other than the original one and sometimes even "empty" files onto them. DVDs are far from being used to their fullest.
With Audio it's the same although not quite as noticable. Of course they have improved a lot but there is still a lot of room. For instance, if you look at the RC1 versions of "Friends Season 1-8". The music on those DVDs, although only background or interlude etc. is better than the music on some multi-million dollar movie DVDs. And sometimes the mix is just poorly done. I mean, some really focus almost all information on the centre, even if it is moving from left to right or vice versa. Or if something is slightly of to the left, then still the entire sound is on the centre instead of splitting it up. There are many DVDs that actually present awesome sound and some DVDs are looked upon as reference worthy (U-571 for instance). And then you watch them, and in the case of U-571 the only sound worth mentioning are the explosins. The vocals are really poor. and then a low budget movie like Human traffic Remixed really kicks in (e.g. 'Serious Vinyl Pusher') and with a rather average story nails you to your sofa, simply because the sound grabs you. HiDef Bob, you can be happy not to have Secam  . And at least you can get HD. NTSC is not quite as good as PAL, but comparable. Don't think you would notice to big a difference.I don't think to many forum members have actually seen the DVD5. I myself only had a short demo and was really only concentrating on the nsats beginning of December as my dealer was the only one in Germany to have them. The DVD5 was only hooked up to a Marantz Plasma....or maybe LCD, can't remember, and I just didn't like the picture too much which I would blame on the screen. Blurry blues, lots of green dots in the black. Really not good. But I can't imagine that being the DVD5s fault. I think you can only fully comment on the performance of a high quality DVDP if you have seen it on topnotch projectors with at least a width of 2m screen. Everything else is too hard to tell. But that's a size were most mistakes or faults will be revealed. If you are looking for a good CDP at the same time, then you could take of 1k Euros and you would only be spending 2500€ on a DVDP...which is kind of a bit easier to justify  [This message was edited by Alex B. on Mon 17 January 2005 at 12:35.] |
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Just re-reading this thread - 'imaging' and it's interesting that the discussion has focussed mostly on music, and only a little on the HT side of the equation.
So.... what do folks think of Naim, re it's processor, and speakers, uh, and I guess amps, when it comes to providing a large, seamless, immersive 360 degree surround-sound soundfield - i.e. if the intention is the much quoted cliche "as the director intended", then this is not the concert hall stage, but the large acoustic space of a movie theatre. Note, I'm not talking stereo reproduction of movies, but full, or 'proper' 5.1, or even better 7.1 setups (if anyone is running that configuration) Lets expand the meaning of the debate on imaging to include a little more on how Naim does 'imaging' in a 5.1 or 7.1 HT context. Regards John... This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-) |
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I too was only referring to 5.1 music or soundtracks. Music in movies is the part where a system shines or dies. Quality of vocals mainly depends on the centre speaker.
Soundscape depends on the quality of the software and then the gear used. I can say that Naim speakers are definitly capable of creating great, involving and at the same time high quality soundstage. But I cannot comment on the electronics. But the speakers can for sure. But I can't imagine the DVD5 not being able to, as it is only the source and the decoding would be done in the AVR (AV2 if Naim's own) and that's where the soundstage is being done as far as electronics are concerned. Or at least that's what I think. After all, the DVD5 would be passing a Bitstream to the AVR with no channel spearation yet, but only the pure DD or DTS Bitstream. And as the quality IMO is not directly linked to the soundstage (poor quality can still easily produce great soundstage), I can't see the DVD5 influencing that too much. Only the soundquality. |
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Hi Bob,
quote: Your initial post asked for opinions on colour / imaging on Naim Cd players & the DVD5. I think it is safe to say, that at the time of posting, very, very few people would be using a DVD5 as a primary music source, let alone dvd replay, as they are still somewhat err 'rare beasts' You then listed the equipment that you intend to use the DVD5 with, most of which is not in everyday use with the majority on this forum. I for one have been of the impression that a lot of 'American' based or made for the American market 'Hi Fi' has a soundsatage somewhat different to that presented by Naim based systems. Hence the rather muted responce to your request, well at least that is my way of looking at it. Most here would not encourage you to go and spend such a large amount of $ without being ABSOLUTELY certain in your own mind that the product was going to give you exactly what you were looking for, therefore tried to encourage a home dem. Having now read more of this thread, I think you are going to be absolutely delighted with what the DVD5 will do for you. You are already aware that the picture it produces is second to non... Given suitable material it is truly astounding.. well I personally think so. You already know what I think of it's music playing ability.. it does as stated, plays highly enjoyable music!! As for imaging and what has been said above ref purely bitstream dts /dd stuff. I personally disagree. How on earth can ANY decoder let alone the AV2 produce the soundstage (soundfield) that the sound engineer WANTS you to have if that bitstream is full of rubbish... timing errors, loss of real info, introduction of spurios errors?? I think you will find that the DVD5 will give a much easier ride to a decoder by offering a near as perfect bitstream signal that it possibly can, therefore allowing the decoder to do exactly what it needs to do.. decode a good signal. An amusing side note for you.. When the DVD5 arrived, it was met with the rather expected replies of.. what on earth do we need another player for?? We already have a perfectly good one built in with the HDD??. So I just plugged it all in and left them to it. The HDD can just be switched on and stereo sound comes out of the TV along with the pictures.. very easy. To use the DVD5, one needs to turn it on, turn on the AV2, make certain the pre is set correctly and the volume is adjusted to the correct setting (I have no unity gain), then turn the tv to AV1... (No sound from the tv speakers as muggins forgot that with component connection you get no sound, & I cant be bothered to route a pair of rca's under the floor yet.) Not easy compared to the route above to watching a DVD! So would you care to hazard a guess as to what is now used almost exclusively by everyone for watching DVD's? I aint said anything to the family, as I find it rather amusing.. but it does show rather easily just what they PREFER to watch dvd's played on.. [This message was edited by Steve2701 on Mon 17 January 2005 at 20:56.] |
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Senior Member |
John.
I had a realy good day on Saturday.. the house to myself for hours... bliss... An hour of Acoustic Alchemy to wake up slowly to, then, well lets just say things got a little louder. At a reading of 85 -> 95 on the AV2 volume control Peter Gabriels Growing Up DVD put me back at the concert, and to be able to see it as well, (one of the way better executed for clarity of vision DVDs) was brilliant. Then on with my favourite visual feast.. Quidam, Cirque du Soleil. again at the same volume setting.. the 250 & 175 not so much as sweating, but boy, very loud, and once again, back in the big top where I saw it the first time.. not sure if it's how the producers actually wanted me to hear them, but prety much as I remember it being live in both cases. That'l do for me! |
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Alex B.
I am sure that it was the display device that was at fault. I watched a good portion of "Master & Commander" and a few other videos on the DVD5, back in November on a pre-production unit (so spent well over an hour druring that evening). Everyone was remarking on the amazing(almost HD quality) of the pictures. It was being used with a Knoll DLP projector with a 6 foot screen. I wasn't much more than 10 feet from the screen ... I noticed amazing detail and saturated colours. The only defect I noticed was a slight ghosting of part of the rigging against the sky. Just an aside ... you might be interested to know that Classe (a Canadian company!) is now owned by B&W. They still remain separate companies however ... B&W provided all the funding for the new Delta series. That is why, at least over here in North American, you will most often see B&W speakers driven by Classe electronics. Bob [This message was edited by HiDef Bob on Mon 17 January 2005 at 21:50.] [This message was edited by HiDef Bob on Mon 17 January 2005 at 21:50.] |
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