Hi,
As a lot of you are interested in LCD and Plasma TVs (I like the idea of a flatscreen too....but not affordable for me yet) I thought we could all collect our experiences or impressions here.

OK.
Pros are of course the looks and the longer lifespan (if good quality).
A big pro for the LCD compared to the Plasma is the fact, that Plasmas burn in and LCDs don't. But LCDs are more expensive.

My personal impressions:
Well, I looked at them in three major markets here in Germany. Saturn, MakroMarkt, MediaMarkt (kind of like Dixons, Currys and whatever you have in England). In all three of the markets the LCDs & Plasmas were hooked up to both analog and digital soruces. Analog being just FreeToAir cable or whatever. Digital source usually either being some DVD or digibox. I concentrated on those with about 27" upwards if I remember correctly, not the small 15-20".
They all failed horribly.
None produced clean colors. Especially bright red and blue were really poor and overblown. closeUps of people with bright red jumpers were simply aweful. Picture laked cripsness. Fast movements were not reproduced adequetely, instead sometimes even running text message, as seen on most newschannels, were blury and not sharp. I also found that most TVs did not produce good scaling. When altering the ratio from 4:3,16:9,14:9 or zoom, most of them seemed to produce even worse pictures if the ratio was altered from the original. When changing ratios on ordinary TVs, you usually just get a stretched picture, but these all los sharpness and went blury.
I also noticed that they quite often had digital artifacts/blocks. Blacks were also more grey than black. Especially when having white text on black background. I even think I saw shading on one of the TVs.
All in all, they were no good. Both LCD and Plsama. Actually, apart from the burn in problem, I couldn't see any differences. I must say, I did try to adjust the settings on some of the TVs with no luck. Sometimes I got slight improvements but not worth mentioning.

Last week during my stay in England though, I was in Brent Cross Shopping Center and opposite John Lewis there was a small TV/electronics shop. Can't remember the name. They had three LCDs standing around, I think 42" Fujitsu and some other make. I reckon they were all hooked up to some digital box (DVDP, digibox, digital cable or whatever). And all three looked pretty good! Colours seemed "natural" although not as good as with an ordinary TV. Speed was hard to tell, but I would still say that LCD and Plasma are not good enough yet for high-speed camera movements, but then a lot of DVDs aren't perfectly produced and DVDPs sometimes fail to supply appropriate signal. Nevertheless, they are a bit slow, even at 16ms.
The picture was quite sharp even at 42" which probably is the biggest screen I have seriously compared as the even bigger ones never seem to perform.
Unfortunatly there was hardly any text to check about sharpness and speed and black/white contrast. But I was pleased with what I saw. The salesperson was really busy so I didn't ask about the source, maybe they supplied HD input which would then be native screen resolution, but I cannot imagine so as the performance in this case wouldn't have been appropriate as picture was sharp, but not that sharp.

So, overall I must say, some LCDs really look pretty cool but cost a hell of a lot of money. From my experiences in shops, it seems as if the signal really is crucial! With an ordinary TV you can use almost any average signal and get very good results. With LCDs you really need extremly good signals or you will hate the picture.
For me personally they are not worth buying until my TV breaks down and prices drop. Anything below 32" really seemed small to me and I would probably have to go with 42" to really get a satisfactory result as far as size is concerned as we in Germany have a lot of 4:3 and I don't like to watch stretched pictures of somehow overblown. Oh, by the way, some of the screens, when turned to 4:3 had light grey frames instead of black frames around the picture, probably to match the silver case of the screen, but that's a really bad idea as black would for one look better and subjectivly enhances sharpness.

I have a relatively old Panasonic 42 inch plasma - an early model - I was told when I bought it that it should have 10,000 hours of use before the picture started to degrade. I have had it about 4 years and am still very happy with it (no noticable signs of problems).

LCDs are expensive for the size and (so Ive heard) are not so good at fast movement (eg sports).

I think also that plasmas only exhibit "burn in!" if they show the same visual for a long time - for regular tv or DVD usage, this hasnt been an issue.

Net - go for a plasma.....for your main TV and then get a LCD for the spare room...

Jonathan

Alex,

As far as I am concerned..

Plasma 'screen burn'. Far to much is made of this. Virtually every reader of this forum know that if you leave a red dot / still image on your screen for a LONG period of time you have the possibility of this happening. Set the screensaver on the panel as appropriate and you wont have a still image for long enough for this to be a problem. 'Station indicators (AKA Sky logos) can largely be got rid of with the backup button and any that are permanent are now mostly semi transparent and not a huge / insurmountable problem.

It has been said here many many times.. THINK SIGNAL.

For the surprise of your life... go view a plasma with the input being 3 or 5 channel component (or HDMI shortly) direct from a DVD player. (I rather doubt this will be available in a department store or lidl, sorry, but it is a fact)


It will probably alter your view on plasmas somewhat.

I agree with Steve. I have a 42"Panasonic which is 2 1/2 years old. No burn in apparent, no weakening of contrast and color depth is as good as new.

Running on a length of quality lead from the progressive component out on my DVD it is cinematic. I have yet to see the same panel in a shop show anything like the picture that I get at home and that includes off my VCR used as a TV tuner or the digibox.

It is amazing that the suppliers allow their products to be so poorly demonstrated. If I was them I would insist on quality signal sources and proper training for the sales staff who know nothing about the equipment.

LCD's have yet to impress me though they have great potential. The lifetime argument has yet to be proven since most quality plasmas are still working fine. So spending extra money on equivalent size LCD vs plasma need carefull thought.

The confusion over HDTV standards and HDMI & DVI needs to get sorted out and properly explained. For now the standard DVD playback resolution is pretty good, though I have seen HDTV in the states which was mindblowingly good. Again the plasma looked preety good so LCD is not an automatic choice for that either.

regards
GEOFF

"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"

I’ve recently switched from using a Sony 32” CRT TV to a Panasonic 42” plasma panel (TH42PW7B) and have to agree with the general consensus that what you see in the stores does not match up to the results achieved at home with a bit of careful setup. My Sony CRT TV is capable of producing a fantastic picture but it’s in a fairly spacious living room and without laying the furniture out in such a fashion that it would appear we were all huddled around the TV the picture is somewhat on the small side for comfortable viewing. Now that plasma prices have dropped to the point where they are comparable to what I paid for my 32” widescreen TV seven or eight years ago I thought it was time to change.

Having made the change I have to say I really am very impressed with the quality of the picture. The main incentive for change was screen size and I would have been happy for a picture simply as good-as the CRT. I’m quite confident, and everyone in the house agrees, that what we’ve actually got exceeds the quality of the CRT TV. Image quality really is stunning, particularly with a component feed direct from a decent DVD player as Steve mentions. On a good feed, it has that looking through a window effect which can be quite disconcerting. Very effective and impressive, especially on well recorded material like some wildlife and natural history programs where the image quality coupled with the screen size does give a real sense of tangibility. I know I only trawled around department stores and high street electrical retailers (rather than AV specialists) but no demo I saw came close to this level of quality. I just had to buy on faith.

I also have a good quality DLP projector (NEC HT1100) in a dedicated and light-safe cinema room and in some ways the quality of the plasma is making me rethink the merits of front projection. There is something about the strong, rich, vibrancy of the plasma image that gives it a real, tangible, solid-object, reach out and touch quality. Of course, the projector is always going to win out on image size but as good as the NEC is, the image looks a little washed out and flat in comparison. The projected image simply doesn’t have that solid quality and therefore betrays its origins as light reflected off a screen. It will certainly be at least a few years time but if I ever consider upgrading the projector then I definitely wouldn’t rule out something like a 50” plasma with 1920x1080 resolution (or whatever will be achievable in the future) and sitting a little closer. By the time this happens I’m sure flat panel prices will have fallen to the point where such a device would cost no more than my projector costs today.

From what I saw of LCD compared to plasma, I felt that the LCD image looked rather stark and gritty. Colours from plasma seemed more natural whereas LCD didn’t quite have the same subtle hue variation. Plasma has quite a few years head start and I think LCD still has a little catching up to do when it comes to producing a convincing TV/Movie image IMHO.

On a point of reference regarding price: based on the cost per square inch for what I paid for my 32” CRT TV all those years ago, a 42” plasma should cost about £2,200. The plasma panel I bought actually only cost £1650. I’m sure plasma prices will continue to fall for some time to come but I believe current prices can be justified as approaching reasonable. Especially if you want something now and have grown impatient waiting years for prices to fall to the level they are at now.

Allan

[This message was edited by Allan Probin on Sun 19 December 2004 at 1:08.]

Allan,

Firstly, "off-topic", I think it was your old NAP200 I bought from Andrew at AudioRepublic, so thank you!

I am looking into LCD/Plasma to replace my 15 year old Panasonic 28" CRT.

Because of space constraints, I am looking at 32-37" maximum.

I had narrowed it down to Panasonic, Sony or Hitachi. My first choice was the 37" version of the Panasonic screen you bought, then the Sony. However, I am concerned at Panasonic's lack of HDTV compatibility, and now today's rumour that Sony are going to pull out of plasma altogether.

The Hitachi is HDTV-ready, but is wider and not as aesthetically pleasing as the other 2.

Now I'm back to square one!

Steve D

Hi Steve,

The advantage of the Panasonic plasma panels compared to the Sony and, I think, the Hitachi, is that they don't have attached speakers. You are simply buying a bare display panel to which you can add your own tuner (or Sky/Freeview digibox) and speakers of your choice, and put them where you want them. As well as being more flexible, I like this arrangement aesthetically because you get a panel with just a thin bezel around the edge. I measured up the 37" panasonic and the front dimensions were about the same as my 32" CRT. The other Panasonic to look at would be the Viera but that doesn't have any digital connections and won't even accept high definition signals on the analog inputs.

I'm not sure if the Hitachi is compatible with what's proposed for HDTV in this country but what you need to look for is a) a DVI connector with HDCP (copy protection) or an HDMI connector, and b) support for 720p and 1080i resolutions at 50Hz. Good luck asking for this at Comet or Dixons ! Within a month or two we should start seeing HDTV compatible displays labelled with a HDTV-Ready sticker.

Allan

Hi there,

Has no one been looking at the Toshiba 32WL48 ?
This has been getting a lot of discussion on www.avforums.com and has a HDMI input. It's a 32inch LCD and is coming in at around £1300 at present.

I've not seen one yet myself, but am waiting for our local JL to get one in.

Roy.

I've been keeping my eye on plasma & LCD over the past year, and the other eye on my Sony widescreen TV (that I bought when they first appeared and cost so much in retrospect that I don't want to think about it,) which is slowly dying.
I get frustrated at the way that these displays are demonstrated in shops as the signal is generally dreadful and it makes them all look very poor - but take a look at their CRT's too, and you can see that it is the shop, not the panels.
I still think LCD's have yet to sort out the horizontal movement, and I also find that the graininess is only acceptable when you get far enough away; but that is preventing getting the big screen effect that I would like.
The plasma burn-in is nothing that a domestic consumer should worry about; worry about it only if you are running an airport departure lounge!

Plasma still have the edge on quality at the moment and the prices are dropping like a stone; I only worry that there will be 37" LCD panels this time next year at around £600 which might make me kick myself if I bought something now. My wife says that we could wait forever if we think about that, and I think the disaster this Christmas for the high street may give us some irresistable bargains in January.
I have compared many plasmas and my current favorite is the Hitachi 37", which appears to have the picture quality of a good CRT even in the shop; the only downside is that it is short on scart sockets. Of all the screens that I have seen, Hitachi impress me most, and the name is reassuring too.

I have a Panasonic DVD recorder and Sky+ which is working overtime this Chrismas collecting movies from the TV, so I am getting justification for getting a plasma now (there is a run on Hitchcock at the moment too!!!). The only thing that worries me is seeing regular TV programmes on a big screen - like it isn't somehow appropriate.

Rasher,
When you put a large panel into a room for the fist time, it certainly seems to 'dominate' its surroundings for a while, thereafter, it simply seems to become part of the room. We gained well over 6 square feet of our living room back, as well as geting a 3X bigger picture!
As for watching run of the mill programs, dont worry.. they dont change... eastenders or corrie is still un watchable.. (oops) but many others become sooo much better like natural history etc.. (I'm told the 'big match' effect is good to)
If you think the Hitachi is short on sockets, check out if it has component inputs also (for your dvd) as these will generally disable one of the scart (RGB in my case)inputs. Also check out how many are RGB enabled, as you can tell sky+ & you HDD to output rgb for better pictures. If there are not enough scart inputs a good quality rgb switch unit (I use a 'trilogy' which I got from maplin) will be a good thing to have.

Steve - It says this, but it makes little sense to me:

Connections:
Connector RGB1 (digital) 24 pin DVI (Dedicated to the connection of the AV3000E Multi-media box)
Connector RGB2 (analogue) 15 pin D-sub (Available on AV3000E Multi-media box)
Control (RS232C) 9 pin D-sub, RS232C 9600bps
Audio for RGB1 L/R mini-headphone jack
Audio for RGB2 L/R mini-headphone jack

Computer Input:
RGB1 15 pin D-sub (Available on AV3000E Multi-media box)
Video Format RGB digital, TMDS
Frequency Horizontal: 31~60kHz, Vertical: 56~85Hz
Audio Stereo, 470mV 270k Ω
RGB1 15 pin D-sub (Available on AV3000E Multi-media box)
Video Format RGB analogue, 0.7Vp-p, 75 Ω
Sync Level H/V Separate Sync and H/V Composite Sync: TTL LevelSync on Green: 0.3Vp-p, 75 Ω
Frequency Horizontal: 31~106kHz, Vertical: 50~85kHz
Audio Stereo, 470mV High Impedance

Rasher

Steve may clarify this but that looks like a strange set of inputs for domestic use. You should have a component in option at least , alongside the DVI input. The 15 pin D-sub is usually for connection to a PC or a High defention signal.

It must be that you need the AV3000E multi-media box. What are the input connections on the multi-media box?

regards
GEOFF

"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"

Rasher,
Please look here & let us know exactly what you are looking at buying? Maybe a complete plasma 'tv' or just a panel plus your own speakers and the Av3000e box (a very flexible option!!) I think the 3000 comes bundled with the 'tv' version.. It did when I nearly purchased one.

Note you also used to be able to read & print off a complete manual for your desired product in PDF format, which made research exceptionally easy with Hitachi products. Wish they all did this!! & there manuals were excellent and full of info unlike some I could mention..
As you can see the AV 3000 lists some excellent inputs (& different to those you list above) that I wish I now had, ho hum!! The speed at which it all evolves is starling, but, like you, my old tv was dieing, I had to jump at some stage, & to be honest, I do not regret it in the slightest, as it is going to take a good few years for this all to settle completely,.

I have seen a Plasma on a DVD5 and was not that impressed. Preferred what I saw in the UK.

Burn in problem is not as big in the UK as it is over here. I get BBC1,2,3,4, ITV1,2,3 and Channel 4 and Five and I have noticed that you never have channel logos. The only thing with a fixed position are football scores in live matches.
In Germany however, every channel has a permanent, non-moving, logo somewhere, always (!) except for the advertisements. So you will understand, that here the burn in is a big problem. Even on TVs in stores.

Wow - that's terrible.

As to the DVD5, I found that I really had to adjust the display's brightness and contrast significantly otherwise the picture looks washed out. Once the display settings are setup (the Naim player comes with excellent setup test screens) the player displays an excellent picture.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Browsing in Smiths the other day, I spead-read two reviews. One re DVD5 the other an Arcam 29 ..ok there are a few letters missing but it was an Arcam "something" 29....and it cost aboy £1,600.

The DVD5 scored better on sound, but the Arcam scored better on picture and overall value.

Any thoughts, or better still, comments based on real observation?

Cheers

Don

That was in Hifi World wasn't it, Don?

I must say I've seen the DVD5 in action a few times now and thought its picture to be awesome, as well as the sound. I wonder what TV was used and also the type of connection that was used as well - that'll certainly have some bearing on the picture performance.

Cheers,

JR

Don,
It may sound crazy, but the DVD5 is more than capable of 'speaking for itself'.
Just get to see one set up correctly with a good display, and then watch an alternative, then decide.
As Jon has said, the picture quality is 'awsome', for me it is in a different league to anything else I have yet seen.
Better on value??? Well in the world that is Naim, how do you apportion 'value' with products like the 500 series? Only individuals can decide on that one surely.
Most here would happily spend on a 252 over a 282, then move on to a 552 when they could. For me personally there is no difference except you can see the difference instead of hear it.
If I relied purely on what 'the press' said I would have sold all of my Naim on Ebay and now be sat listening & viewing via Dennon. My ears & eyes decided that - that particular course of action was a rather stupid one for me.

[This message was edited by Steve2701 on Thu 23 December 2004 at 21:52.]

Jon, Steve,

I would no more buy a DVD player based on a magazine review than a cd player or turntable.

But equally, I find it helpful to learn of other people's experiences before decideing which items to look at myself. It sort of helps to form a short-list and make the dealer's life a bit easier as well. Do we all really want to audition every dvd player out there????

I'm sure the dvd5 is good. I saw what could be done at the Heathrow show. But i wouldn't buy one mail-order on that basis alone. The Arcam might also be excellent. I simply don't know. Should i put it on the short-list?

Cheers

Don

Don,

If you're in the market and are serious about choosing a DVD player that's right for you, then by all means, yes stick the Arcam on your list. And then maybe a Pioneer and a Tag Mclaren for that matter! Seriously - £2,5k is a lot of money to shell out on a DVD player so I suggest treat it just as you would any serious hifi audition and act according to your findings.

I quite agree with you about magazines. It was the same for me when I upgraded my speakers recently. There are a zillion bloody pairs to choose from and no way was I going to listen to them all!! Magazines are really useful at narrowing the choice down to something more realistic and whilst the reviews can offer some insights they should be treated as a rough guide and not the final arbiter - that's the job of your very own eyes and ears!

Cheers,

JR

I have seen a DVD5 but not in an A/B comparison to a different make. Problem seems to be, that when comparing, you should compare toa more or less top range (not necessarily price) player. Quite often, you only get to compare to an ordinary Marantz or Denon. But just because they make good players, does not mean they are the best for their money. For instance, the best DVDP for under 1000€ is or was a Pioneer. Maybe a different one came up recenetly, I do not know, but I can't imagine a Naim dealer selling and comparing to Pioneer. Neither to Arcam. Usually Marantz or something, that really is not state of the art DVDP but simply good.

Of course you can say the DVD5 produces a great picture, but then I would want to demo it on a projector, producing at least a 2m wide picture (not diagonal) and then compare to the biggest Pioneer or the new Arcam. At that picture size, you will actually see the differences if there are any and if you choose a good projector, HD capable and digital connection or good YUV, the projector won't blur the test as sometimes LCDs or Plasmas do.
Sometimes size does matter, especially if you are searching for flaws.

Don,
When I 'start looking' for just about anything like cars, hi-fi or anything else hobby related, the pile of magazines at the side of my chair grows exponentially for a few months... and as you quiet correctly say, this needs to be done to try and form some form of list in the mind! There is simply a staggering amount of brilliant stuff out there...
My only problem this time round was I ended up buying stuff I had written off as being not the way I wanted to go... until my dealer re opened my ears!!

I have seen both of the best Arcam players, and more other players than I could list here, and I can do side by side comparisons with 4 other players, one of which is a top panasonic.

The DVD5 should most definitely be on your demonstration list if you are looking for the best picture you can get.

Alex,
For what its worth.

Yes, you are correct, you do need to audition like with like, & as far as I can tell I went out of my way to do just that. Back in the early part of this year I clocked up more miles than I care to remember on demos. From avc a1 to tag to arcam ,onkyo & rotel, pioneer & yamaha.I saw some of the largest pieces of electrical hardware yet devised by man for the living room I think..

With regards to the '5, projector / screen size.
I can happily state that I have been there, done that & have the t shirt.
Both in component and as of yesterday with dvi or whatever. On a 2m screen, with a VERY affordable projector.

You can stand 3' in front of the screen if you want, looking for all the problems you want.

You will very quickly just end up watching the film.

LCD and Plasma has come a LONG way in just 2 years. Not perfect quite yet - but good enuff.

A top Plasma like my Pioneer 504(HDMI equipped) really is unbeleivably good esp with the few High Def disc i have been able to get hold of. Add a great HDMI DVD Player (Pioneer DVD88Ai) and its gobsmackingly fantastic. Can never revert back to good ole CRT now!

But please future proof yurself if you are in the market for a new Plasma or LCD as you must make sure its High Definition with a HDMI or DVI video input or you are wasting your precious money - if you want to watch Sky HD TV in 2006!!! Those who have bought already without these may well be forced to change again in a year.

Dil

We are keen to get a cheapish small(17") LCD for the kitchen but want to make sure it is HD compatible.

Have looked at the LG RZLZ40 which the website says is HDTV ready here: http://uk.lge.com/prodmodeldetail.do?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=0102&categoryId=0102&parentId=01&modelCodeDisplay=RZ17LZ40&model=NOTHING

What does this mean? Is it the component input or S-video input that is used or will another input board etc be required for the TV (in addition to a new Sky box) when sky goes on line?

Are there any other 17" LCDs that are HD compatible? Ive looked at LG's competitors websites and are none the wiser

sorry to say but component and s-video or any other non digital and non-HDMI/DVI connection will not be compatible with Sky HD