Damn. That's a blasted nuisance! My AV2's got no adjustments on its 7.1 analogue inputs, which is also the case with similar processors that have multichannel analogue bypass inputs. I suppose if you've got similar speakers in a square room then you might get away with this, but for me it's a no-go.

From what I can see, the only way I can take advantage of the new "HD" sound formats is by getting a combined processor/amp from the likes of Denon - not something I'm going to do.

quote:

the only way I can take advantage of the new "HD" sound formats

"New"? About the only HD format anyone's authoring discs with these days is Dolby True HD, which is the old Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP, e.g., DVD-Audio) in disguise.

Therefore–if DVD-Audio discs sounded crap on your previous player from manufacturer "X" via the analogue outputs, chances are the Dolby True HD soundtrack will sound equally crap on their newer players.

(BTW–the Denon players, as well as Naim's own DVD5, offer channel trims on the individual channel outputs–so it's not an unusual feature to find at the front end, rather than at the processor.)

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Damn. That's a blasted nuisance! My AV2's got no adjustments on its 7.1 analogue inputs, which is also the case with similar processors that have multichannel analogue bypass inputs. I suppose if you've got similar speakers in a square room then you might get away with this, but for me it's a no-go.

From what I can see, the only way I can take advantage of the new "HD" sound formats is by getting a combined processor/amp from the likes of Denon - not something I'm going to do.

I'll take a look this evening at what adjustments are possible on the analog outputs of my HD-DVD player.

Just a followup on this–it's important to keep in mind that MLP streams / Dolby True HD are a "decoded" format, inasmuch as the data is not stored on the disc as synchronous digital audio data. Some sort of processor is required to decode the data present on the disc to generate digital audio words.

Because this is the case, it makes more sense (especially from a copy-protection perspective) to fold down the channels internally before converting the data to analogue–as this summing will affect the overall volume of the individual channels, most "decent" players provide trims to adjust this balance ahead of time.

At no point in time is a decoded multichannel PCM stream transmitted over HDMI (again, for copy-protection reasons)–therefore, trims are a necessity in the decoding device, whether this be at the player (for analogue) or at the processor.

This is an important feature that separates better players from cheaper ones, and one I'd expect to have (in fact, available on some Toshiba HD-DVD players with a firmware update).

quote:

That's not quite it. Most BD/HD-DVD players have the ability to send the uncompressed PCM variant of the lossless HD codecs down the digital line. The AV2 has always been able to decode this and so can give you almost the same level of quality as is available through HDMI 1.3a. That said, it's not quite as high resolution.

and

quote:

That's true, I'd forgotten about that method of getting the audio into a non-HDMI processor.

The s/pdif connection doesn't have enough bandwidth to handle all 5.1/7.1 channels of high resolution (eg 24bit/96Khz) PCM audio so in this instance the audio would be down-mixed to 2.0 channels. On arrival at the AV amp, this can then be passed through a DPLIIx processor to extract the surround information

I am probably being thick here but regardless of the bandwidth down spdif I thought multichannel audio at higher bit / sample rates such as 24/96 & 24/192 was NOT allowed to be transmitted by spdif/ optical because of copyright protection so that the only allowed ways to decode these signals are in the player and out via 5.1 analogue connections or via a proprietary link such as Denon Link into a compatible A/V receiver decoder.

I assume this rule also applies to HD audio formats so the only output for any of these formats via spdif into an A/V receiver will be downmixed 48Khz stereo PCM which is not terribly beneficial.

regards
Geoff

I can't comment on the rest Geoff but certainly 24/96 can be sent via spdif.

I agree David, it makes sense for the player itself to provide internal channel trims before outputting in multichannel analogue, but this doesn't appear to be the case with any that I can find - I'm rather interested in the new Samsung dual-format player which can decode all but the DTS HD stuff, but it doesn't appear to offer this option either. So it's about as useful as a chocolate fireguard to me!

Even my cheapo little Oppo DVD player has channel trims for its DVD-A & SACD analogue outputs.

Tony,

Just had a look through the manual for my Toshiba HD-EP35 HD-DVD player. The setup menu allows the following adjustments to be made to the analag outputs:

Front Left/Right = Small or Large
Centre+Surrounds = Small, Large or None
Subwoofer = Yes or No
Crossover = 80, 100 or 120Hz

As well as the above, distance can be set to each speaker and each speaker can be trimmed individually for level.

Geoff,

Don't worry, there are no such copyright restrictions. I don't think the player is capable of 24/192 on the s/pdif (AV2 couldn't receive it anyway according to the FAQ) but it will put out multi-channel PCM downmixed to 2-channels at 24/96.

Dave,

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying but the HDMI port is quite capable of putting out full resolution 5.1 channel PCM (amongst other things). It's well within the HDMI spec (since HDMI 1.1) and I've seen it do it!

Allan

Allan,

Just about to place an order for the Tosh EP35. I'll be connecting it into my AV2 as well as my DVD5.

Looking at it, the analog 5.1 is the way to go, but I'd be interested in any advice ?

Cheers,
Roy.

quote:

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying but the HDMI port is quite capable of putting out full resolution 5.1 channel PCM (amongst other things). It's well within the HDMI spec (since HDMI 1.1) and I've seen it do it!

Yes, but there are some newer releases which do not permit this (dependent upon a flag set at the time the disc is authored). HD-DVD Advanced Content discs do not permit this, for example–this is an oft-quoted misconception. Multichannel LPCM streams are also wasteful of disc-read bandwidth, and therefore not a preferred authoring format anyway.

P.S. I'm prepping a set of BD and HD-DVD audio test discs for my own use, and will investigate this further.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Probin:
Tony,

Just had a look through the manual for my Toshiba HD-EP35 HD-DVD player. The setup menu allows the following adjustments to be made to the analag outputs:

Front Left/Right = Small or Large
Centre+Surrounds = Small, Large or None
Subwoofer = Yes or No
Crossover = 80, 100 or 120Hz

As well as the above, distance can be set to each speaker and each speaker can be trimmed individually for level.

Allan

Thanks for the info. Allan. I'm pretty certain the majority of HD players with multichannel analogue outs will offer similar adjustments, it's just that they don't specify this in their on-line information. For instance, reading the press release for the Samsung player, it gives analogue out connections as "1"! Very helpful. Not!

quote:

Originally posted by Roy Donaldson:
Just about to place an order for the Tosh EP35. I'll be connecting it into my AV2 as well as my DVD5.

Looking at it, the analog 5.1 is the way to go, but I'd be interested in any advice ?

Roy,

Build quality is not great. If you want solid build then go for the XE1, it's heavy, solid and built like a gold bar! The EP35 also has a few quirky features and from a useability point of view it could be better. However, HD-DVD picture quality out of HDMI at 1080p/24 is excellent, very crisp and clean looking, a step up even from the HD-E1 I had previously.

for SD-DVD, it provides a nice, clean 576i output via HDMI which I feed into an external scaler and the results are very good. It has an ABT scaler chip built in which is quite good. It's a step up from the scaling built into the HD-E1 but it's not as good as my DVDO VP50. The XE1 has a REON video processor which is said to be better than the ABT device in the EP35.

I don't use the multi-channel analog outputs, just the optical digital connection. Put in a HD-DVD with Dolby TrueHD and you'll get 640kbs DD, put in a disc with DTS-MA and you'll get 1.5Mbs DTS. The s/pdif is definitely non too shabby and will probably be better than what you're getting from standard dvd via the DVD5

The shipped units are a few firmware versions out-of-date. Once you're happy it's working ok, plug an ethernet cable into the back and download the latest firmware via the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Dever:
Yes, but there are some newer releases which do not permit this (dependent upon a flag set at the time the disc is authored).

Dave,

You appear to be confusing LPCM output with bitstream output of DolbyTrueHD and DTS-MasterAudio, etc. There's never been any kind of restriction in outputting multi-channel LPCM via HDMI; this has been happening since day one of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I'll provide links later if you like.

The question of transferring bitream Dolby TrueHD, etc across HDMI to an external processor cable of decoding these advanced audio formats has only recently been resolved. In the first generation players, these codecs had to be decoded inside the player in order to be passed through a mixer where secondary audio streams (such as commentary tracks, player sounds, etc) could be mixed in. It was thought that for discs authored in Advanced Mode, internal decoding would be mandatory. However, now we have HDMI 1.3a equipped players, these codecs can now be passed to similarly equipped processors for decoding externally. For advanced authored disks, if you choose to do this you don't get secondary audio streams mixed into the primary audio. Selecting a commentary track, for example, will automatically drop the player back to internal decoding and outputting multi-channel LPCM.

Just last week I was at a friend's house - we had a Toshiba XE1 sending DolbyTrueHD via HDMI to an Onkyo 805 AV Amp. The 805 was happily decoding DolbyTrueHD via it's internal decoder. Advanced Authored discs as well. You can't argue with the facts!

quote:

Multichannel LPCM streams are also wasteful of disc-read bandwidth, and therefore not a preferred authoring format anyway.

About 90% of the blu-ray disc I own have multi-channel LPCM lossless soundtracks. If you go to www.hidefdigest.com they give details of the soundtracks on most discs. Take a look at a random sample of blu-ray reviews and see what's available.

"At no point in time is a decoded multichannel PCM stream transmitted over HDMI (again, for copy-protection reasons)–therefore, trims are a necessity in the decoding device, whether this be at the player (for analogue) or at the processor."

quote:

You appear to be confusing LPCM output with bitstream output of DolbyTrueHD and DTS-MasterAudio, etc. There's never been any kind of restriction in outputting multi-channel LPCM via HDMI; this has been happening since day one of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Perhaps you misunderstood me–I am referring to Dolby TrueHD streams off disc–it is possible to set an authoring flag that requires that the TrueHD stream be decoded inside the player only, or sent as a raw stream to the processor–eliminating the possibility of transmitting a decoded LPCM multichannel stream. I agree with you as regards the changes in the HDMI spec that now allow one to decode either inside the player itself or at the processor.

There is a distinction to be made between disc asset types and stream types.

If a disc is authored such that the audio soundtrack is sent as raw LPCM streams over HDMI, there's absolutely no lock-down scheme that prevents bypass of copy-protection...this was one of the earliest issues with the new formats that needed to be addressed.

FWIW, I use to work in disc authoring before I returned to NaimUSA in 2005–we participated (along with a few other disc authoring facilities in the Chicago area) one of the first head-to-head authoring comparisons between the two formats (one video project, one multichannel audio).

Though I prefer Blu-Ray on some technical merits, the HD-DVD authoring tools were easier to use and understand from a legacy perspective, and copy-protection of the audio and video streams was already one of the biggest areas of concern with the Sony tools. Then, as now (with the Paramount HD-DVD move), there was a lot of Microsoft money floating around in the process.

Setting asset protection aside (though this is always an issue with authoring clients), it would be quite interesting to examine issues of sound quality between the native LPCM and decoded Dolby TrueHD streams with decoder hardware that was good enough to show up any differences.

There is at least a factor of two between the amount of data transmitted between Dolby TrueHD and LPCM streams, and that bandwidth is much more valuable on the video side–hence my remarks as regards LPCM's wastefulness. You can fit almost an entire ATSC broadcast stream in that extra 18Mb bandwidth!

But there is a bit of political wrangling around the licensing of Dolby TrueHD for Blu-ray-only discs that is beyond the scope of this discussion. I have a feeling that the final step in the format war will tie into IP licensing issues–and I'm not alone in this.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Yes, but there are some newer releases which do not permit this (dependent upon a flag set at the time the disc is authored). HD-DVD Advanced Content discs do not permit this, for example–this is an oft-quoted misconception.

Dave,

Please name one example.

Allan

Look at the spec. Dolby TrueHD streams can be hard-flagged as decode-only, rather than decode and convert to LPCM stream, to ease the compatibility issues with some combinations of HDMI versions between player and processor.

which spec exactly? If you could just name an example it would be much easier

...especially for older Blu-ray players with no built-in decoder support for Dolby TrueHD. The flag can be set to "push" the TrueHD stream without decoding to LPCM.

The Dolby (Professional Audio site), MS, and DVD Forum (password required for licensee information) sites have a wealth of information about all of this, and you'd probably find this all quite interesting.

I'm sure I would, but if you could just name one of these "newer releases" I'll take a look.

Allan

Does the Onkyo AV receiver provide any display feedback as to the multi-channel stream type, or is this overlaid by the XE1 video outputs?

This might give you a clue as to how this happens.

Yes it does. On the Onkyo front panel, LPCM displays as "M.Channel" (or something similar) and Dolby TrueHD as "Dolby TrueHD", DTS-MA as "DTS Master A.", etc.

Spec for Onkyo 805 here:

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/product_en_5741576.html

Take a look at the "Advanced Features" section for decoding capabilities.

Now then, where's that example disc I asked for

I have a question about the multichannel LPCM delivery? Do you have to apply the channel trims at the player or does the AV receiver apply its trims to the digital multichannel input?

I think the answer was hidden in the last two megaposts further up but I couldn't understand it in all the techie-speak (gee, I feel like a newbie).

Frank,

You raise a good point. The answer is that it can be done in both places. To prevent processing of the LPCM signal twice, it's usual to bypass as much processing in the player as possible and do it all once, in the processor. In the player, set all speaker levels to their default (0db) setting and set all speakers to large to bypass bass management.

Allan