i agree with martin, what could possibly be on the scaler card that isnt already out there via another manufacturer, why all the secrecy

and how long before we see a much more capable processor with preferably room correctin and auto set up

come on guys give us the info

regards

neil

DVD5 scaling card ? But ... what are you talking about ?



More seriously, about BR and DVD-HD, I would say : wait until the war is over ... It is possible that this war kills both standards. And as Chris wrote, I am not that sure that top upscalers would not be as good as HD players.
SD DVDs have nice long days with 1080p50/60hz upscalers.

I have had HDTV since January 2000. For about the last couple of years my viewing habits are summed up by this statement, "If it is not in HDTV it is not worth watching" ... NTSC PQ is rubbish! There is more than enough programming in HDTV to keep me satisfied (I watch on average about 4-5 hours of HDTV daily). I have watched numerous movies in HDTV ... the PQ is clearly superior to that from the best quality DVD's. As for scaling ... you can only do so much with NTSC ... it is a horrible format! The only reason that I would buy a scaler would be to upconvert 720P and 1080i to 1080P.

So, I am very anxious to get into high definition DVD's. However, I will not do so until the disks begin appearing in the rental stores. If HiDef DVD's do not start appearing in the rental stores in large numbers, both formats will fail miserably in the general market place just like D-VHS did. The players will only be bought by the Videophiles and Audiophiles. Also, if the number of movies that are made available in HDTV through satellite and cable providers (Pay for View) increases Blu-Ray and HD DVD will fail ... they won't be needed. I have watched several recent movies in HDTV that were OAR with DD5.1 sound.

From what I have read from those that have done a comparison, Blu-Ray PQ is clearly superior to HD DVD. Blu-Ray players output 1080P, which will be viewable on the new 1080P plasmas and LCDs. The PQ should blow away even broadcast HDTV ... and it will not be compressed like broadcast HDTV. So, I hope that we do not have a repeat of the battle of VHS vs. Beta where the inferior format won. However, Blu-Ray has a couple of things going for it ... more movies are in Sony's control through the studios they own and they have PS3.

quote:

However, Blu-Ray has a couple of things going for it ... more movies are in Sony's control through the studios they own and they have PS3.

It's the PS3 that will win the format war for Sony. More of these will be sold than standalone HD/BR DVD players put together.

Rackkit

I disagree, I bought an xbox 360 and so far the machine has been a let down. Its failed throughout the world, as will the Playstation 3 one factor and one factor only wins any format war. Software. DVDa and SACD were slow to release the software and advertising for both was very poor. unless the software from br and hdd is better than DVD and the extra cost is worth it the public just don't buy into it. there are less than 1% of the people in the world into hi-fi home cinema. I advise all to sit back and wait to see which if any takes off. My money is with DVD as we have still not found the full potential of this format

Neil W

I totally agree with you its time Naim gave something back to the customers and let us know what if anything is planned for the future. How Its two years on and still no scaler card. Still no AV3 the AV2 is now six years old its time for something new in this area.

Neill

Have you not heard....'We're off to go work on the scaler card now.' is in fact a code term used in the software dev group.

Usually it can be heard around 12.30 on a Friday and can roughly be translated for 'We're off down the pub for a long lunch now, anyone fancy joining us ?'

Roy.

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Rackkit ... My money is with DVD as we have still not found the full potential of this format

Neil W

Images from the DVD5 look good on a small screen up to about 42" (I have Sony KV36XBR400 which gives a 33" 16x9 picture). Once the image gets much larger the picture quality quickly deteriorates. I have yet to see picture on a large screen that is acceptable to my eyes on even the most expensive systems costing over $100,000. It looks like crap compared to an HD image even with a scaler (garbage in, garbage out).

The marketing for HDTV in North America has sucked right from the beginning. The industry did little to clear up the confusion over HDTV/Digital Television. And there continues to be a problem with the cost of the satellite/cable boxes. HDTV displays are selling well, but not the boxes. This problem could be solved with the new sets that require the decorder circuitry for HDTV cable to be built in.

The future will definitely be HDTV ... SDTV will die soon as analog television is legislated out of existance in 2009. SD DVD's days are numbered, whether it is replaced by Blu-Ray, HD DVD or some other technology. Downloadable HD movies onto hard disks or memory cards is a definite possiblity for the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Rackkit

there are less than 1% of the people in the world into hi-fi home cinema.

Neill

But a much higher percent are into gaming and they get the dual benefit of using their machines for playing hi-def movies as well. It'll be easier to sell the public the idea of higher quality pictures than a better sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:

At least with DVDA I am now burning my own DVDAs!

Martin

With.....?

quote:

Originally posted by neil w:
i agree with martin, what could possibly be on the scaler card that isnt already out there via another manufacturer, why all the secrecy

and how long before we see a much more capable processor with preferably room correctin and auto set up

come on guys give us the info

regards

neil

mail info@.....what info in particular?

I'm with Neill and will be sitting very tight.

I think that the gap between SD and HD may be lower in the UK due to PAL.

Either way the penetration of Home Cinema systems is remarkably low amongst my friends...let alone Hi-Fi!

Having been singed by Hi-Def audio I have NO intention of looking at this until I see some true market penetration.

In the meanwhile an upscale card will allow me to get more from my many DVDs - depending on price of course.....and an upgrade to my plasma, so that gives me a couple of years!

Martin

Please take a look at these screen shots: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=668631&page=2&pp=30
Here you can easily seen much more details/resolution on HD-DVD.


Thomas

thomas

Different things for different people, I don't have a 12 foot screen in my living room and I am unlikely unless I get six numbers to have one either. I am well happy with My boring old 37" plasma, my friend has a 50" plasma and uses the dvd5 and is totally blown away with the picture.

If you have cash to burn go ahead but, I just don't want to end up the same way as i did with the three DVDA's and the 5 SACDs I have sitting on a shelve unused.

You Talk about the gaming world but the problem with the Xbox 360 has been the games so far they are very poor. Even the playstation 2 games seem to have went down hill very quickly. So unless like I say the software is better then even that industry is slowing down. Game the largest UK game stores posted a profit warning last year due to sales dropping very quickly. However there recent figure show they made up the cash with xbox 360 sales and PSP sales and are hoping for good sales figures from sales of playstation 3

All I have to say its a strange world we live in when the winner in any format war is the i-pod. I belive the future will be with DVD hard drivers Chord electronics have just released one. I expect to see more, it seems to by the way the world is moving towards down loads.

If the scaler card can improve the picture on my modest screen I will be happy, I will stick with Naim I have faith in the brand and wait the long wait that is Naim for new products to arrive after all we are on the Naim forum and are all fans of the brand we have our complaints about long they take to do stuff but its always worth the wait as we end up raving on about how right they got it.

So in the meantime I will sit back in my home with my home cinema and enjoy better sound and picture than I can at the local cinema I'll pause it from time to time to get another cold bud. I'll read the forum and sit back with faith that the scaler card will make it all even better, Adam can you add a feature for it to chill the beer as well !!!!!!!!

Neill

Neill,

If you've got unused DVDAs you can always send them to me....I'll even give you my one SA disk, Bat Out of Hell!

M

CNet has listed 10 ways that HD DVD falls short!

1. Initial HD-DVDs are just rehashes of the existing DVDs
2. Extra features not in high-def
3. Player doesn't do enough
4. No 1080p output
5. Component video can be flagged
6. Wacky audio
7. HDMI hiccups
8. Sluggish performance
9. The smaller the display, the smaller the difference
10. A dearth of discs

Sounds like a piece of junk to me! I certainly will not be waiting in line to buy one.

For the complete review ...
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6510291-1.html?tag=nl.e702

Here is what one could read on IMBD news of the 20th of April :

Critics Unimpressed with HD DVD

Consumer electronics writers have begun to weigh in on the new HD DVD players distributed by Toshiba this week, and most are unimpressed. Several cite an intolerably long boot-up period, a confusing menu system, and incompatible sound. But nearly all express disappointment in the picture. On smaller sets, the writers agree, the difference between HD DVD and a conventional DVD is virtually undetectable. "Bottom line is that HD DVD is great, but will you notice?" asks Ben Drawbaugh on HDBeat.com. Writing in the Los Angeles Times David Colker remarked that on larger screens he could detect a subtle difference. He added: "I tested my perceptions by switching between the two formats. I asked a colleague to close his eyes while I chose a version, then had him open them and guess: DVD or HD DVD? He got it right only about 75% of the time. So, yes, it's better. But don't expect the dramatic leap in quality that came with the transition from VHS to DVDs in the 1990s."

And about DVD5'scaling card I have one question : When ?

I only hope that those who have had the chance to compare the PQ of Blu-ray and HD DVD are right when they say Blu-ray is markably better.

HD-DVD players have been available for a couple of weeks now. For anybody remotely interested in real world experience and discussion of the new format then probably the most definitive place to go would be AVS Forum. Visit the Blu-ray and HD-DVD areas.

Be warned though that the bitter rivalry between the Blu-ray and HD-DVD camps is extreme and unnerving. Rumour, propaganda, FUD are just some of the milder weapons of mass destruction in an embarrasing mud slinging match of unbelievable proportion. However, having followed that forum for some time it's not too difficult to distinguish the fanboys from the veteran posters. There are a number of posters there with reference systems, who've owned D-VHS for years, will own players of both formats and offer verdicts based on personal finding. I'm talking about people like darinp, thebland and Art Sonneborn.

It would be interesting if members here on the Naim forum start getting these things in their hands and give some balanced views. Especially if we can get comparisons with some top end SD DVD players like the DVD5 or FMJ Arcams.

Allan

quote:

Be warned though that the bitter rivalry between the Blu-ray and HD-DVD camps

Similar to SACD vs DVDA?

I wonder if there was also rivalry between Betamax and VHS? But at least there was a winner, even if it was the technically least proficient.

Martin

Arguably...the acuity of eyesight in the beholder (reviewers included) is more significant to appreciating the differences at this point.

In other words... are there enough people out there who can see a difference to make either hi-res format a commercial success?

It would certainly be wasted on me! I find natural colour more important than resolution, and in that way I prefer CRT to LCD, though some projectors get a nice picture to look at.

My white cane is already booked, from the best supplier! Fredrik

It's a funny thing, all this talk about the need for a higher resolution DVD format. I'm surprised that most people are talking as if DVD is flawed.

I'm amazed by the results I get--latest 55 inch Fujitsu plasma with a Linn Unidisk 1.1 connected together with a high quality 20 feet DVI to HDMI cable. I'd say it looks very close to HDTV but of-course not taking up the whole of the HD 16:9 screen (when displayed in original movie aspect ratio).

The biggest factor seems to be the quality of the mastering of the DVD in my experience. Some look absolutely stunning--so much so that I do not feel any need for HD DVD. What I do need though is for the industry to do a better job of mastering DVDs. Some can look quite grainy or noisy. Take for example the Deer Hunter. What an aweful picture. Then look at the re-release of the first three Star Wars movies. The picture is incredible. Look at more modern release like the Lord of the Rings movies. These are so clear on my set that it's like looking through a class window into a diffent world. Mind you, if you use progressive scan component video the picture deteriorates quite a bit. You've got to use the digital link to get the eye-popping DVD experience.

Take another old one--Blade Runner. This just really is great stuff. It just looks fantastic given it dates back to the 70s (this release doesn't quite hit the levels you get when watching the incredible landscape scenes of New Zeland in Lord of the Rings but it's still marvelous).

The big problem is quality of mastering. Sometimes you can see hair that was transferred from the master film onto the digital master--and the picture bounces around like it does at the cinema. This is just really shoddy work from the film industry.

Also, I don't want to watch movies in 16:9 aspect ratio. I want to watch them close to the way they were created and shown in the cinema. That's what makes DVD so wonderful when it is done right.

HDTV is quite something though. It's really amazing the colour and detail you get on the full 16:9 scale, especially with the new documentaries/nature programs etc. But that is not how I want to watch movies and for my screen size, which is pretty big at 55 inches, the resolution of DVD is more than enough and is close to being as good as HD.

I think you start to see problems when a DVD is presented in 16:9 format so that it fills the whole 55 inch HD display. Then it is clear that HD TV is superior to DVD (as it should be with the high number of scan lines).

If you're watching DVD on a display that is bigger than 55 inches then I'm sure that you start to see the limitations in the resoluton of DVD and this is where HD DVD makes a contribution in my opinion.

However, most people will not be watching movies on screens larger than 55 inches (probably mostly 42 inches for the forseeable future) and this will sink HD DVD as the replacement to DVD. HD DVD will go the way of the other high definition formats--niche high end with only limited number of releases, probably decreasing over time. The same will happen to SACD and DVD-A.

Like someone said, the iPod will win hands down.

Regards,
Chris.

I currently own 3 HD displays, I started out with a 32" toshiba CRT HD display, then got a inFocus 5700 projector (projecting onto a 106" screen) and I have recently got a 26" samsung LCD for the bedroom.

For sources I have normal digital TV (from Rogers in Canada) and a sony (DVPNS75H I think) DVD player, the cable box is connected through a composite cable and the DVD player through HDMI. For my projector I have a HD Rogers cable box and the Arcam DV89 DVD player, both connected through component cable. In the past I used to have my Toshiba TV hooked up to both the HD cable box and the Arcam, but no more.

I first got HD TV about 2 years ago and used it on my toshiba 32" tv. At that time I thought my DVD pic quality was at least equal and probably better than HD TV. One direct comparison I made (although months apart) was of LOTR the two towers which I have watched both on HD TV and on DVD.

Since I got the projector (8 to 10 months) though I would say that some programming in HD TV (like prison break, 24, some sports programs) is substantially better than the quality on DVD.

Certainly HD TV is worth it, it is far superior to cable tv here in Canada, even on the 32" TV. Is HD DVD worth it? For me it will not be worth it until the format war is over, and definitely not until is proved that all movies (old and new) will come to the format and that they are not double the price of DVD's. I'm also concerned at how they are potentially trying to limit how you connect your player to your source (HDMI only for the best resolution).

I was lucky enough to spend a couple of hours at a friends house last night watching a HD-DVD player hooked up to a projector similar to my own. The projector was an Optoma H78, I’ve got the H79, so almost identical apart from the DC3 DLP chip in the 79 as opposed to the DC2 in the 78.

My current DVD replay mechanism is an Arcam FMJ DV27A running through a DVDO VP30 video processor performing the de-interlacing and scaling duties prior to being fed into the projector digitally at the projectors native resolution. So, not too shabby and probably close to the top of the tree as far as standard definition DVD replay goes. I thought about bringing this setup along with me but decided against in the end. As it happens, it wasn’t really necessary anyway.

The HD-DVD player was the Toshiba HD-A1. The HDMI output from the player was hooked directly into the DVI input of the projector using a standard HDMI-to-DVI cable. The digital optical output was connected to a TAG AV32 surround processor, custom-built Lucid Technology amps and active crossovers driving JBL THX speakers, actively. The HD-A1 takes a while to ‘boot-up’ from switch-on, probably 40 seconds or so, but as the projector takes about a minute and a half it’s not really an issue.

I watched about 20mins from each of the films: Serenity, Phantom of the Opera, Apollo 13 and Doom, plus the previews section for upcoming HD releases from one of the disks. Well, there was absolutely no doubt that what I was seeing was a high definition source, it is totally unmistakable. Anyone thinking that there can’t be much difference between good quality standard DVD and the new high definition formats is totally wrong. Maybe the differences on a small screen won’t be that great but the differences are most certainly there and clearly obvious to anybody on a 6ft projected image. Given the magnitude of the difference I would imagine it would still be obvious even down to a typical panel type display of 37 or 42 inches. Two things that really stand out are clarity and three-dimensionality. All the disks looked fantastic but for me Apollo 13 was the most impressive, it’s shot in just a natural, plain vanilla style but the clarity was so impressive it’s the closest I’ve ever seen an image come to that ‘looking through a window’ effect. One of the previews was for The Matrix, incredible, just incredible, looked absolutely pristine and 3-dimensional. Can’t wait.

The sound quality seemed very good to me also. The sound-tracks were encoded in the new 7.1 channel, high bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus format. Unfortunately the bit-rate for this format (and DTS+) are too high for conventional SPDIF and Toslink outputs so the player re-encodes the format on these outputs to full bit-rate normal DTS. Despite the re-encoding, the sound was still very impressive.

All-in-all, this is a revolutionary change, clearly in another league to standard DVD. The player we used isn’t perfect, it’s large, slow and clunky but remember that this is from the first batch of a first generation player of a brand new format. Despite its shortcomings it's still capable of creating the best looking images I’ve ever seen. Let’s hope high definition, of whatever format, gets established and this stupid format war doesn’t kill off the biggest advance in video replay in the home since DVD was introduced.

Allan.

Hi Allan,

On my 55 inch plasma display using my Linn Undisk 1.1 connected with DVI-hdmi, there's not a significant enough step up in quality from DVD to HD TV (even Discovery HD with Sunrise Earth etc...). Sure HD TV is better than DVD: a little more detailed and what feels like a richer, more varied set of colours.

However, DVD in my setup is still amazing--like looking through a window into a different world. Okay so I have $10k player and a $9k display so it should be good.

There's no way I would buy another player just for HD DVD.

I was in the cinema yesterday watching the Da Vinci Code. The first thing I noticed was how much worse the picture was in the cinema compared to watching DVD at home. The second thing I noticed was how much worse the sound was than watching at home through a stereo setup.

For most people, however, the cinema will always be better than their home setup.

I don't think HD DVD and Blue Ray will make it. We're looking at another laserdisk scenario.

Chris.