Hi General,

quote:

It is fantatsic to be able to add a scaler and HDMI in the future.

I'm curious about HDMI output on the DVD5, since current output is DVI. Do you know if HDMI is an output option on the new scaler card, or a separate output option as part of a DVD5 update. It was a tempting comment!

Cheers,
Mark.

I don't know.

I think I read it was a separate option to the scaler. But I may well be wrong.

DVI is fine for now. HDMI isn't widely spread yet(UK), so I'd expect a few revisions to come of its spec.

After all, it's the wonder lead that does it all, so I'd expect to find Naim working to that rather than any lesser spec, ie, the HDMI on the Arcam DV79 only passes stereo audio, not the full 5.1. So why bother doing anything less on a Naim when DVI is fine for now?

Thanks.

When the DVD5 came out, I was slightly surprised to see DVI on the back, given that the majority of new gadgets now sport HDMI. I'm guessing that the combination of HDMI 1.0 not available at design time, together with a product release delay resulted in DVI in the production unit.

I agree that we'd be hard-pressed to see any difference of 480p output between HDMI and DVI. However, doesn't HDMI also offer other video benefits over DVI, rather than just being a single conduit to shove all sound and video down e.g. YUV as well as RGB? I think the ability to provide 480i over HDMI would be advantageous for those wanting to use an external scaler solution, for example. However, that would mean changing/upgrading the DVI output to HDMI, and I'd wager that that is unlikely to happen.

It will be interesting to see where Naim takes its DVD players, given the pace of change in that part of the AV industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark R:
I agree that we'd be hard-pressed to see any difference of 480p output between HDMI and DVI.

There are no differences. DVI is the digital video transport/protocol of HDMI. HDMI just can also transport digital audio.
There are no interest to have an HDMI output on the DVDP other than to plug it to a TV (audio and video) or a receiver doing the switching.
This is not the market targeted by the DVD5. The regular coax is still the prefered channel to send digital audio. And as Naim does, it is always a good idea to separate Audio and video, be they analog or digital.
I see HDMI as a cheap and convenient plug and play A/V wiring, just like your SCART was in the analog domain.

Hi Manu,

quote:

There are no interest to have an HDMI output on the DVDP other than to plug it to a TV (audio and video) or a receiver doing the switching.

From a mass-consumer implementation perspective I agree with you, but I respectfully disagree on this being the only application of HDMI. I see HDMI giving video options to those wanting to optimise their AV environments.

Barring SDI modifications, the 480i output option of HDMI is a better feed to an (HDMI-enabled) external scaler, if you need to scale to a high-resolution digital display (480p will most likely be pass-through, unless you have something like the iScan HD+). Adding an additional colour space of YUV over HDMI gives people another option to optimise.

The internal scaler of the DVD5 is great if all you want to scale is the DVD signal. If you have other devices that you want to scale e.g. satellite tv, video, etc., only having a SCART input on the scaler card will not do the job, IMHO.

I'm just commenting on what appear to me to be idiosyncratic design decisions by Naim (shock, horror!). Yes, the DVI thing is relatively minor, and was time-dependent I think, but the SCART thing threw me. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a DVD5, it's just that my ideal DVD5 would have had HDMI out and a scaler option with more inputs that just SCART.

Maybe the DVDX2 or DVDS3 will have some of that. :-)

Agree with you about the SCART. And more, it is an unknown connection our side of the ocean. It looks rather archaic on such a player as the DVD5.
I don't see me telling a prospective purchaser of the scaler card: you will have to use a very special adaptor to plug your sat/cable box and i'm the only one to sell it in town. Come on Naim, give us a worldwide standard connector.
On the other hand, more and more set-top boxes in North America are of the HD type, already doing the scaling from 480i to at least 720P, so the need for an external connection will be limited. A modular video switch box linked to the AV2 has IMO more chance of success here.

Emmanuel
Euphonie

Indeed, I wonder what happened to the VS1 project?

All

Just my 2p worth here. When the DVD5 was reviewed in HI-FI Choice there was an interview with Steve Sells from Naim think that was his Name. He said that HDMI was to expensive to put in at the start but would be available with the scaler option. However the scaler option details posted by Adam look very poor. This came as no suprise to me. I tell you for why If you look at the back panel of the DVD5 it would have meant changing this full back panel to give you inputs and then adding the scaler card. This seemed like major work for the upgrade.

The VS1 seems to be on the back burning for now, however it maybe easier to have this as a video/switcher/scaler, with multi HDMI inputs. I don't know Naims plans. However sales of the DVD5 seem to be very good. So lets hope much r&d goes into it to make the scaler option work.


Neill

HT-Naimee

Your wrong on the no other DVD player lets you scale external sources. The Merididan g series allows for this and the new Denon models also do this as well.

The player was given the editors choice badge and scored 87% overall. The review was very positive, as am I about the player when I have seen it in action I have been impressed not just because it has a Naim badge either.

My only down was on the scaler option which so far does not look good, however naim will work on this and I am sure they will get it right. they normally do.

Neill

HT-Naimee

They seem to prefer the Meridian machine, but the award winner was the Towhnsend machine. But that was awarded before they reviewed the naim, Meridian and the Arcam. So to be honest I don't really know which they prefer.

Neill

HT-Naimee

The DVD5 comes in at £2.6K and the Meridian G98 at £3,3K with the Scaler. You have to do this like for like test once the scaler price is confirmed. Then a head to head on DVD pic/DVD sound/DVDA sound and scaler pic. Oh and almost forgot the CD sound. So its hard to tell who makes the best DVD player.

Neill

quote:

However, the DVI, as far as I know, is capable of suppling exactly the same resolutions as the HDMI. No matter whether progressive or interlaced and not matter which resolution.

Firstly, apologies for sounding like a broken record, but there is a bandwidth limitation of the DVI spec that essentially does not support a 480/576 interlaced signal to be output over DVI (some devices have firmware hacks to enable input of 480/576i over DVI). HDMI has the same specification, but does some doubling to enable 480/576 interlaced. I agree that copy protection is a strong driver for HDMI-enabled devices.

Neill: Thanks for the info on the HiFi Choice article. Just have to wait and see what the scaler looks like (and costs!) now. I wonder if it'll have "dial-your-own" resolutions ...

Hi HT-N,

I think we're getting our wires crossed, and maybe I wasn't clear enough in the other posts. I was not referring to what resolution can be output over DVI, but whether the signal is interlaced or not. HDMI can output an interlaced signal at 480/576 resolution, but DVI cannot.

If all conversions within the DVD player are of high-quality, the need for 480/576 interlaced (480/576i) output is moot. However, some may want, or already have, a separate, high-quality scaler that has, among other things, their de-interlacer of choice, through which they route all video signals. A scaling hub, if you will. In this instance, 480/576i output would be beneficial. Having HDMI output on the scaler card won't provide that much in this situation, apart from some connection future-proofing, and perhaps the ability to send YCbCr if you prefer your (digital) display's RGB conversion.

In the interests of full disclosure, I do not use DVI or HDMI (ironic?). I've tried it, with the Arcam DV79, but I didn't get the "Wow! Look at that!" factor. For me, it was "slightly different" than "better". Additionally, I didn't get access to callibration tweaks that I can get when using component. (Maybe that's the point?) Note: these were not the only factors considered!

The DVD5 is already a compelling single-box solution for current technologies, not least for its trademark Naim sound abilities. However, going forward we'll see more HD resolution TVs being sold, more HD TV being piped in and, maybe, a need for scalers better than ones in the displays. The Naim scaler may turn out to be excellent, but may provide limited external support ... we don't know yet.

A Zen moment: this is all boll*cks. I cannot retro-actively hope for a different design solution, nor project what the scaler solution will be. I want the DVD5 to do it all well. Shorten the signal path. Get more digital inputs in the display, or, better still, a good video switcher.

Cheers,
Mark.

Naim

As I already own an AV2 which i am more than happy with. I would like to know as this post started if there is an AV3 on the way or not. If this is going to cost a lot more than the AV2 I can not see it putting anyone of an AV2. So come on some info please, after all the two channel guys are busy talking about the 555 so give us something over on the AV forum to talk about.


Neill

Adam,

Time has passed on a bit now. Would it be possible to share information regarding processor roadmaps, with select existing AV2 customers.

An idea of if there is an AV3 on the horizon, pricing range, possible features ?

Cheers,
Roy.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
General,

You need a centre. The best would be another 10-2A which would be the perfect match, but I don't know if ATC would supply a single. The difference the centre makes is quite remarkable, although I'm not surprised the system sounds rather good as it is.

I have recently ditched my centre and improved the sound. I use ATC SCM50ASL (active speakers) for the front left and right. The speakers are 7 feet apart and the screen onto which I project the films is exactly 7 feet wide and I sit 11 feet away from it. I think that a centre is essential for a plasma or conventional TV in order to locate the dialogue properly, but when you get to a projector screen of a decent size then the integration advantages of a phantom centre outweigh the localisation advantages of a centre. In fact a centre might be over-localised in some ways when the screen is that large and the actor is off-centre.

Anyway, the matching active ATC centre is huge and very expensive!

Andrew

I've seen pictures of it.

It's like having a small car parked in front of you.

The 10A-2s do a sterling job of the front soundstage. There are times when a centre is blatantly missing, but as I said before, it would have to sit in the fireplace above my sub, so it'd be down to that or death by wife.

I own some 10A-2s and I think they are excellent speakers. The only advantages the 50s have over them is in the deep bass region (fairly obviously) and also the latest 50s have a better tweeter (which is also in the latest 20s).

I am currently experimenting with running my home theatre system without a sub (sending the .1 signal to the 50s) and I think it may actually be better than with the REL Strata III. My 50s are pretty much flat to 20Hz in room (I've measured them with a measurement mic and real-time analyser). The REL can add a LITTLE more gut-wrench/rumble but at the expense of losing the precision/control in the audible frequencies.

Andrew

http://pictures06.aol.co.uk/NASApp/ygp/Login?event=View...57854.1&locale=en_UK

Can you paste a pic straight into this reply, or does the forum not support this?

Used to own aq pair of 20s, those tweeters are superb!

Miss them a lot.

In basic English, what is a scaler?
(he asks expecting all kinds of sarcastic remarks!

A scaler takes a signal from a video source (eg DVD, VCR, Sky) and attempts to scale it up so that it has more detail on the way out of the scaler box. This can be useful so you can send a signal to a display device (eg an LCD projector) at its "native resolution", which is the level of detail at which it performs best. Projectors will have scalers built into them anyway but external scalers are often better.

Andrew

Thanks AndrewB - I kind of thought it might be something along those lines - thanks for making it clear!

hi blythe - a bit more info on scalers. DVDs are currently delivered in 480/576. As AndrewB points out, if you have a digital display or projector that displays in higher resolution e.g. 1280x720 pixels, the scaler has the job of converting the delivered 480/576 signal up to the required resolution of the screen. This scaler can be in the display/projector device itself, or in an external, dedicated device e.g. Lumagen, DVDO IScan, etc.

A subtle point to note: there is no additional information in a scaled picture. The additional pixels in a high res display get their information from interpolation that the scaler performs on the original signal.

Here's my attempt at a simple example:

Assume a standard display using 480/576 has two pixels next to each other, A and B. Information for these pixels maps directly from the 480/576 DVD input signal with, in general, no scaling required. So, we could say there is a direct mapping from input signal to display, with no other processing.

Now let's assume we take the same input signal, but use a 720 hi-def display instead. The same pixel space is now taken up by four pixels A, B, C and D (note: this is not strict a correlation of 480 to 720 displays; it's just a hypothetical example). Let's assume the original information for pixel A still goes to pixel A, but the information for pixel B now goes to pixel D. How do we get the information for the additional pixels B and C? Well, that's the job of the scaler, and it will fill in the gaps, based on the information it is given for A and D.

So, no additional native information, but we use more (and smaller) pixels. When we get HD DVDs, we'll have more input information and, in theory, no scaling required to get to 720, assuming the source is 720 of course. More information, fewer processing steps, better quality, theoretically.

Cheers,
Mark.

Another thank you! I can see exactly wjere you're coming from. As I have never knowingly seen a "scaled" picture Vs a "non scaled" picture, I have no idea how they compare... All I know is that the pic from my budget projector looks impressive, though I can conceed that it isn't the last word in picture quality.

I'll sit and wait a while and see how things go!
Thanks to eveyone for your input (no pun)

The DVI connector on the rear panel of the DVD5 connects via a removable high-density connector to a breakout from the video processor board; there are also plenty of unused connectors left on the (Naim-designed) PCB...

As for the SCART thingie...like the DIN plug, the Europeans have it one up on us (north) Americans yet again...think of the panel real estate needed to break out all of the possible SCART signal combinations on RCA phono jacks!