Johns Naim

I enjoyed reading your reply, you have a lot of valid points. I agree with you totally that there seems to be a snobbish attitude to hi-fi in the UK. Many time I have heard the phrase I am thinking of making a change. I don't know why these people thinking there hi-fi seems to be so much better than everyone elses, but it goes on no doubt.

Can I just go back to your points about Sony. I have heard many Sony demo's over the years and they just leave me cold. I just don't like sony hi-fi/home cinema, but each to there own, I guess thats why no two hi-fi systems are alike. In the UK sony kit comes with badges on them stating 'tuned for uk market' don't know if you were aware of that. Sony also change there model range in the uk every six months. So if you buy a 1k amp for example, six months later you can pick it up from a bargain basement store for about £400. The kit just fails to hold its price.

On SACD sony have handed full production of the Mechs for players over to Linn, most people here in the UK have seen this as sony pulling the plug on the format. With DSD still being left out the HDMI road map the future for SACD looks bleak.

Going back to the Plasma LCD point, sales still favor CRT, with CRT accounting for around 80% of TV sales. You can now pick up a 28" widescreen TV for around £299. It shows the vast prices differences here in TV sales. I have been looking at an LCD TV myself but to buy one with HDMI with a size of say 37" your looking at £2.5k the same price as a DVD5 here. I guess we just live in two different markets.

Neill

I've read with interest John Naims annoyance with snobbery and discrimination against audio products made in the Far East.
It is only to their own disadvantage if consumers are not open to products which may offer great performance at more affordable prices.
I enjoy the Naim sound and have an all-Naim home theater / music set-up (DVD5, AV2, NAP 250.2 x 3, Totems). However, I also have a 2-channel music set-up with a three Japanese components that I find highly satisfying i.e. CEC TL1 transport, Koetsu Rosewood Signature and Air Tight ATM3 monoblocks. I've also heard the WAVAC HE833 which simply exudes quality and cost quite a bundle.
One good thing about mass market Far East electronics apart from the fact they often offer great performance for relatively lower cost, is that they seem to be quite reliable - perhaps more reliable than the hand-made products from boutique hi-end manufacturers. Think Toyota/Lexus vs Alfa Romeo/BMW. In this regard, I guess Naim is better than many high-end companies. I've found out that just because U spend thousands of bucks on a high-end component, it doesn't mean that they will function flawlessly.

Greetings All

Neill said:

quote:

Can I just go back to your points about Sony. I have heard many Sony demo's over the years and they just leave me cold. I just don't like sony hi-fi/home cinema, but each to there own, I guess thats why no two hi-fi systems are alike. In the UK sony kit comes with badges on them stating 'tuned for uk market' don't know if you were aware of that. Sony also change there model range in the uk every six months. So if you buy a 1k amp for example, six months later you can pick it up from a bargain basement store for about £400. The kit just fails to hold its price.

Heheh, from my 'other' posts re the Sony All Digital amp, it must seem like I've become a convert to the 'dark side'.

Not so.

To be truthful, apart from my Walkman WMD6C cassette deck (a bit of a cult item in it's day) I've never taken Sony that seriously before now with regards to 'high end' kit. Just sort of didn't cross my radar. Neither did the Denons, Yamahas etc of this world either.

Over the last couple of years with my growing interest in HT, I ended up choosing a Sony DVD player over Arcam, Toshiba, Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz etc, pretty much as it provided the best performance for picture and sound for movies to my ears and eyes, and things like the finish/build/engineering/remote etc just put the icing on the cake.

Pretty much the same when it came to getting an AV processor amp - I ended up after much auditioning and general angst going with the then TAE/TAN combo. (Angst because I couldn't afford an AV2/175/150 combo)

We have some of the basic, and also QS range of receivers here, and badged 'tuned in the UK' etc as you describe.

Personally, Sony seem to make a huge range of products; frankly the entry, or middle of the range ones don't appeal that much - unlike Naim there is not the same consistency of sound in the range to my ears.

However, there is a world of difference IMHO from that level to the top of the line ES range in sound, finish, presentation etc.

The ES range also seems to 'stay' 'in' for a bit longer - typically around 18mnths seems to be the model lifespan, albeit the previous TAE/TAN was around for over 4 years - there were a lot of delays and rumours long before the new digital paradigm arrived. 18mnths seems to correspond quite well with the likes of Arcam; I read once on their web site that 18mnths is their products planned lifecycle.

Of course, Naim is a totally different kettle of fish, with ongoing 'evolution' rather than outright obsolescence, and kudos to them for it.

Here in OZ, Naim would hold their prices a lot better than Sony; however the kit rarely comes up for sale. Sadly though, according to my dealer, once it goes much over two or so years old, one does not get a lot for it on trade-in or resale; perhaps why most hold onto it.

As you say, we are in two totally different markets. As I posted elsewhere, if I could get an AV2/175/150 combo for similar money, or perhaps a reasonable amount more than the Sony digital, I would go for it.

However, on performance grounds for movies, it seems to be more swings and roundabouts v's the Sony digital than a clear cut better/worse as far as I have been able to assess it, (and I have listened long and hard!) with performance advantages on both sides, and thus personal taste will always be a deciding factor.

The cruncher unfortunately is price. To be sure the market here is VERY different by the sounds of things to the UK.

On RRP here, the difference between the AV2/175/150 (assuming one already has a 2 channel amp, and is adding on to provide 7.1 facility) & the 7.1 channel all digital ES Sony, is the best part of eight thousand dollars, nudging closer to ten thousand dollars when one takes into account the discounts that Sony ES dealers will offer.

That means I could take the Sony, buy a pair of say B&W N804's to go with it, and have some change left over.

You see the dilemma that places a Naim fan like me in, - unfortunately not one of Naims creation or fault, just the different market pricing structure/exchange rates/freight etc, as you point out.

Sadly, as much as I like the Naim AV2 'sound'for HT, IMHO I feel it would be more of a performance move sideways, than ahead in the movie sound stakes, for an arguably different, rather than 'better' overall movie presentation compared to the all digital Sony AV amp.

One has to make choices in life, and presently the AV2/175/150 combo is too much for me to consider paying at the present time to simply satisfy my Naim preferences, especially with regard to my systems development in other areas, re updating the stereo side of it etc.

Prior to this Sony entering my life, as I mentioned, I'd not have seriously considered it as 'high end' material - but I am surprised and delighted to not feel sonically short changed at all; indeed the golden beast has knocked many of my HiFi precepts and notions of quality & VFM into something of a cocked hat over the past few weeks since I've had it connected to my CDI & SBL's.

However I agree with your comments about Sony in general, and certainly do not feel as 'enthusiastic' re the entry/middle range stuff. But then I also feel 'picky' about most kit in that range: i.e. the entry/mid-level Denons, Yamahas, Arcams etc of this world.

Perhaps I've become a hifi 'snob' myself, heaven forbid, however I would rather think that over the years one does become acclimatised to listening to quality kit, and it takes a certain level of quality, regardless of brand to provide satisfaction overall. Whilst it's not perfect, this the top ES Sony digital amp does. Umm, here's an thought - perhaps if we put a 'different' badge on it?

Best Regards

John...

John

I have really been enjoying this thread, I am glad you are enjoying your Sony kit. I have been speaking to my local dealer who has told me most of his Av business goes to Denon for the very reasons you mention.

A further up date on the HD thing. I have just ordered a loewe 37" Lcd screen. I will connect my Meridian DVD player to the screen via a chord HDMI cable and will let you all know how it goes, once everything is in place. I will blame you John if its not that good!!!!
However just to point out in the UK we have DVB broadcasts, basically digital TV. The performance of this Tv picture signal, is said to out do that of HDTV sateside. So hopefully HDTV in the UK will be well worth the wait.

Neill

HT-Naimee

What I meant was that recent reports are suggesting that Terrestrial Digital Tv in the uk is of a higher quiality than HD that is broadcast in America.


Neill

Depends on what you mean by this; certainly there has been some trepidation regarding the actual type of transmission of terrestrial HDTV signals here, especially with respect to multipath problems in urban environments.

However, if you are referring to resolution (1280x720p vs. 1920x1080i), bit rate or encoding scheme, that is another matter entirely.

quote:

I haven't had the AV2 long and at the moment simply can't use it as I would like to, but apart from bringing the lacking music to the equation, it also adds the involement to me and I actually preferred to often critizised soundstage it produces.

Can you elaborate a bit on that please? I ask as the diminshed surround soundstage is the most popular criticism of the AV2 I have come across. As I'm on the verge of buying one after a home demo, I'd love to know your full opinion.

Thanks.

Guy.

General Skanky,

Another viewpoint:

Before buying the AV2 I owned decoders by Yamaha, Lexicon & Parasound.

In my system, which is predominantly Naim, the AV2 was clearly better.

I have read criticism of the AV2s ability to steer sound effects & create an holistic soundfield; can't say I've noticed. What I have noted is the addictive delivery of music.

Hope this helps,

Martin

Thanks for the prompt reply. As I thought really.

My local dealer is lending me the AV2 this weekend. Looking forward to that.

I've demoed it before at the dealers, along with Lexicon, Paraosund, and have also owned Primare, Arcam and Yamaha kit too and meddeled with countless others too.

I regret the day we sold a Densen Beat 100 amp so as to integrate everything, that was so much fun. Music has never been as much fun since.

I love my movies too, so have been on the look out for the "do it all box" aka the AV2 to appear and be able to afford it.

That time has arrived.

What you say does bolster what I already think, so thank you for that. I know the AV2 isn't perfect, but then what is?

If Naim could add Logic 7 to their kit then I suspect it wouldn't be far off.

Let us know how you get along.

I borrowed an AV2 a couple of years ago - it never went back!

Martin

General Skanky said:

quote:

What you say does bolster what I already think, so thank you for that. I know the AV2 isn't perfect, but then what is?

If Naim could add Logic 7 to their kit then I suspect it wouldn't be far off.

Welcome to the Naim forums BTW.

The AV2 is a superb processor, but the music card as someone else pointed out is it's main strength - that and the Naim qualities of basic sound such as rythmn, pace, timing etc and a full rich tonality.

On the spatial aspects of HT performance, IMV it's very good, but not quite 'state of the art' - heh I'd be another that'd love to see Logic 7 added, and yes, it would then be just about perfect!

In some ways a choice of processor comes down to subjective likes/dislikes as there are a number of processors & processor/amps that compete at the AV2 level re overall performance, but with slightly different balances re the music/HT equation, such that selection will always be a matter of subjective preference rather than a better/worse or 'best' scenario IMHO.

If you don't mind a lengthy read, have a browse through a thread I started re "I have heard the possible future of amplification - Part 11" etc, where I have discussed my impressions/thoughts re the AV2 with the Sony TA-DA9000ES All digital processor/amp, and also compared to my Naim equipment when used in tandem with the Sony using it's processing and pre-out features into the Naim kit I own for HT purposes.

Best Regards

John...

Thanks for the pointer, but I have read it thoroughly. Very interesting stuff indeed. I've also trawled quite al ot of other posts too over the last year here and other forums. (Sometimes too much knowledge is not good.)

I want to keep my system as minimal as possible. I already have an Arcam DV27a, a Sky+ box so all that's needed is the AV2 (to replace my Arcam AVR200).

I must admit to a lot of kit snobbery too. Can't help it, I like to appear a bit elitist on that front.

The best systems will most likely consist of a mix of kit from a variety of manufacturers to cater for both music and film, but I've been there and as good as it sounds, there's nowhere to sit!

So the AV2 should do it nicely on both fronts with a slimline system that still has a lot of quality.

As I use ATC active speakers, a good front end is all I need.

So the question in my mind, apart from the rumoured AV3 that promises so much more, what pre/pro out there can compete with the AV2 for "both" music and film and cost a reasonable amount?

Dear General

I am an AV2 owner. I previous owned the much praised Tag machine. I demo'd the Av2 and new right away it was better. Much Better.

The dealer thought I was mad when I wanted to make the change. I did and have never looked back. I really do feel at the price point nothing else comes close. I belive the Av2 has a great ability to convey, tension, emotion and drama. A lot of AV Pre amps seem to lack this ability.

I would strongly disagree with the moving of effects, as things seem to wiz all over my livingroom. I have said this in previous posts, for some reason the AV2 loves DTS. Feed it a dts disc and just sit back and enjoy, I do!!!!!!


Neill

Thanks for the comments.

My rears have to be next to us firing backwards against the wall as they are too big and heavy to be placed anywhere else than on stands. The room layout dictates this.

However, even with a lowly AVR200 doing surround, when the lights are down etc, rear spatial effects seem fine.

So I don't really have a worry with the AV2.

Went to try and get it today from my dealer but as he didn't have enough leads to connect DIN to XLR for my ATCs I couldn't tkae it away. I'm devastated.

But it'll be all go tomorrow. I really am looking forward to it.

Hmm, interesting thoughts

If there's anything I've learned over the last few years that I've been dabbling with HT, it's that the majority of folks coming from a 2 channel/music background into HT, tend to judge HT/movies by the same criteria as a 2 channel system, aka 'musical' or 'flat earth' values, which is something of a mistake IMV.

One system is ideal/configured for music, and another is ideal/configured for HT/movies, with quite different performance requirements IMHO.

There is some overlap of performance parameters, but other than that it's not apples with apples, as HT implies a coherent and integrated blend of picture and sound; a requirement that does not exist with 2 channel stereo.

The most convincing and satisfying setups that I have heard for music, or HT, are separate systems; inevitably one system that tries to do both involves compromises somewhere along the line to one or the other medium.

Reality being what it is, most of us don't have the wherewithal to have two systems in two separate rooms, so we live with those compromises, but compromises they are.

IMHO, with HT/movie sound, PRaT matters in so far as a sense of 'pace' adds excitement to the soundtrack of a movie; rhythmic elements help nuance of inflection in dialogue, and give an element of 'swing' to music background material in a film score; and timing is important as far as a sense of cohesion in the sound, much like musical reproduction. An ability to separate out dialogue, effects, and background music aids greatly in a sense of clarity, much as in music reproduction, where one can hear either the whole or the individual parts, together or separately.

But from there, the similarity with designed/configured for music systems and a specialist HT system is quite diverse.

Probably the most important parameters for HT/movie involvment IMHO are: the sense of overall soundfield acoustic 'space' & 'size' that matches at all times the on-screen image size in a relative sense; the clarity, sense of space and nuance in dialogue, relative to the sense of the acoustic environment in which it is recorded, and the correct spatial distance between actors on screen with the dialogue matching the visual separation of the actors as displayed on screen; the ability of effects placement to be precisely located within a seamless 360 degrees soundfield in the horizontal plane, and with a sense of vertical precision in the soundfield as well; in short, the acoustics should at all times closely reflect what one is seeing on screen - this is most important, otherwise one suffers a sense of visual and aural dissonance.

To that, one can add an ability to have such high resolution/clarity to be able to resolve the very finest nuances of sound texture, at very low volume levels, but also to have the power/headroom and dynamic reserves to present sound pressure levels smoothly and without strain up to 105Db per channel, (20hz to 20khz) and 115Db in the LFE channel. These are all Dolby digital reference requirements.

Certainly the 'serious' high end HT setups I have heard give away nothing to their 'high-end'2 channel cousins in terms of a very high standard of equipment being required to deliver this sort of performance level - v/few 2 channel systems can deliver that sort of dynamic headroom and loudness levels - indeed CD does not have the dynamic range of DVD period.

Indeed, the majority of 2 channel systems I have heard with 'add on' solutions to create a HT setup are very compromised in performance terms for HT in comparison with what can be achieved with a dedicated HT setup.

A good 'musical' 2 channel system doesn't necessarily cut it in HT, if it can't reproduce the huge dynamic range of DVD's and do it without effort, and the processor NEEDS to have real speed and precision in the steering and placement of effects if they are to ensure visual and aural coherence between sound and picture.

Again, one needs the sense of acoustic 'space' to give that sense of immersion and involvement in the movie. Mismatched (HiFi front, plus add on rears) speakers, or ones with limited soundstaging and imaging abilities (whatever their musical abilities may or may not be) tend to create a soundfield that sounds like multi-point mono, or merely papers the walls with sound, when what one wants, is, as has been pointed out, something that more resembles a large single surround 'speaker'.

Given all of this, is it any wonder some HT systems sound pretty lacking on music, and many music systems sound pretty uninvolving with HT. Certainly that has been my experience.

General Skanky said:

quote:

I must admit to a lot of kit snobbery too. Can't help it, I like to appear a bit elitist on that front.

Heheh, we all take pride in our kit, and choices of kit, to be sure. However, from this side of the planet, the English (being VERY general here) sometimes come across as some of the most class conscious, and class ruled people on the planet, so as you seem to have strong UK product allegiances and, er, self confessed 'elitist' ones at that, it would seem to indicate that you are a 'product' of the UK class system perhaps.. (Dons flame suit).. but as you live there, quite understandably so!

HT Naimee said:

quote:

My Pioneer had nice soundstage but simply lacked the realism. It didn't feel as if you were in the middle of things. But with the AV2 everything is clear and sharp and you feel right in the middle of the action. You can almost feel the bullets passing through you.

What 'model' Pioneer did you have? I believe the likes of the top of the range AX10i etc are very good; certainly my all digital sony provides the clarity/effects that you describe. Was the Pioneer in the same price bracket as the AV2?

quote:

But seriously, I think an AV2 is money well spent and Naim constantly do a great job at further improving it (even although it's the best already).

I have no wish to offend, or start an argument; however I take a degree of umbridge with your last sentence "(even although it's the best already)"

If you were to add the prefix, or suffix "for me" or "IMHO" I would have no problems accepting that, as we are all different, and in HiFi, as in everything else, one mans meat is another mans poison.

However to flat out state the AV2 is 'the best' in a manner that implies not your opinion, but objective fact, actually, I have to say, and it gives me no pleasure to do so, that it does quite irritate me.

Perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick, and I apologise in advance if I have, but it does seem a somewhat arrogant and elitist remark to make IMHO. Especially say, for owners of Lexicon, Meridian, EAD Theatremaster, or really anyone who has invested a lot of time, effort and money in their individual choice and selection for ownership, of high quality equipment in which they are justifiably proud. It's not just 'us' Naim owners who are proud and take pleasure in the ownership of fine equipment. (Be that elitist or not)

It might surprise you to know that outside of this forum, some Naim owners are regarded as being one-eyed elitist fanatics by the greater HiFi/HT community at large, not an image as a proud Naim owner myself, that I wish to be associated with. And to be sure, there is a lot of very fine audio equipment in the market place, that just so happens to not be made by Naim. As always it's great to have choice from a selection of broadly/generally equal high quality products, but with differing presentations etc.

Anyway, I apologise if I seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill, and please don't take it personally, but I did feel a bit annoyed when I read it, and needed to let of some steam...

Best Regards

John...

quote:

Heheh, we all take pride in our kit, and choices of kit, to be sure. However, from this side of the planet, the English (being VERY general here) sometimes come across as some of the most class conscious, and class ruled people on the planet, so as you seem to have strong UK product allegiances and, er, self confessed 'elitist' ones at that, it would seem to indicate that you are a 'product' of the UK class system perhaps.. (Dons flame suit).. but as you live there, quite understandably so

A class system that showed the world the high standards we all aspire today, everyday.


There is one major factor that I don't think has really been mentioned and that is price.

An AV2 will cost me £1950 ex dem. A future AV3 is going to be a lot more, just guessing of course.

Anyway, taking the price into consideration then all the above comments make more sense.

So personally I'll be very happy. Probably.

HT-Naimee said:

quote:

of course it was a "IMHO-statement".

But then all performance judgements are

Heheh, I agree, that all performance judgements with Hifi are predominately subjective - we are all going to respond in different ways to kit with different presentations, given a reasonably level playing field in other areas re price, build quality, finish etc.

Thanks for not taking my comments personally; no offence whatsoever was intended, and I tried hard to convey that in my 'little rant' as I felt not knowing you that it would've been very unfair and uncalled for, for me to have done so.

If in anyway whatsoever my comments hurt your feelings, once again I would apologise - it's a hard line to tread between expressing ones disatisfaction/annoyance with a statement, and offending someone unintentionally, and I very much appreciate your understanding.

Best Regards

John...

Neill said:

quote:

I belive the Av2 has a great ability to convey, tension, emotion and drama. A lot of AV Pre amps seem to lack this ability.

I would concur with this. In terms of hard hitting, dynamic PRaT bringing that extra 'something' re involvement in the movie genre, the AV2 is indeed quite special. Just as Naim equipment is to the forefront of emotional involvement with music reproduction IMHO.

Certainly my Sony all digital beast gets very close re PRaT, but still not quite as hard hitting as the AV2 with the leading edge of transients etc, and the separation of sounds - there the AV2 is unmatched from what I've heard.

Still, whether it be the superb sense of visual and aural integration/cohesion, the finely graduated sense of detail/clarity in the sound re dialogue, effects, and music, and the tremendous dynamic range and smoothness, I nonetheless find myself doing an awful lot of stomach tightening, finger clenching, and having to remember to breathe during those dramatic moments with movies, when watching via the All digital Sony, so it's certainly doing something right re involvement despite not quite having the same level of hard hitting transient attack as the AV2. Heheh, I haven't quite worked out what it is, but on a subliminal level it certainly communicates and involves exceedingly well.

Out of interest/curiosity not having had an indepth listen to the TAG processors, when you say the AV2 was 'better' could you expand upon in what areas for you where the AV2 was your preferred choice? Was it just the sense of emotional involvement/drama etc, or were their other performance advantages that you heard?


Best Regards

John...

Johns Naim

I am not really a features man, I like a simply life. I don't care about Jazz hall effects etc. The tag was cutting edge at that time when it came to specs. However it always just sounded cold to me. I just never found it as special as the reviews said. I dropped the AV2 in and yes the emotion and drama was there. Half the gadgets that I never used were also gone.

We have chatted about this before, but here in the UK at the price point nothing is coming close to the performance of an AV2, yes certain products have more whistles and bells but the AV2 just wins on outright sound performance. We have a similar problem to you in that highend Krell products costing say $4,000 dollars cost £4,000 here its a straight switch $=£ only the exchange rate is $2 to almost every pound. So a bit of Krell kit at $4,000 is worth about £2,000. I think thats why we stick to our UK built audio equipment.

For me surround sound is just that surround. Its not about hearing the plane fly over head all though that is pretty cool. Its about the speakers disapearing and feeling like your in the cockpit of that plane flying the swine!!!!. Like I have stated before, certain systems kit I have heard have that amazing ability, to make the sound appear to be coming from way behind the speakers. Thats what I like but each to there own. Its the same reason why people love there Naim two channel kit. Its the same reasons why you have a two channel Naim system as it just has that something special that you like. Just guessing here.

I can understand you liking the sony HT stuff but can I ask have you home demo'd the AV2 how long did you have it for??. And last point your Sony kit costs more than an AV2 here.

Neill

Well I've managed to pick it up today.

I have only had a tweak and very quick set up.

My intial impression is that it is very clear sounding and very musical.

Until I set it up I can't say on any other aspects of its performance.

I must say the set up looks to be incredibly easy if you have an understanding of AV paramneters.

So it's tinkering away in stereo at the moment and it's nice. I think it's showing up how crappy some of my cds are. Combined with the ATCs, any poor recording is going to be a lot more obvious.

I would say only after a very brief listen, that the AV2 is comparable to my old Densen Beat amp. So that's a good start for hifi at least.

GS

Let us know how you get on over the weekend. If you get a chance watch a film with DTS on it. I bet you won't want to give it back

Oh what cables did the dealer end up getting you ???

Neill

You're the second person to tell me that about DTS. Must be something to it.

I have phono to XLR at the moment, and we've bodged two female phono to din add ons for the connection to the AV2.

Unfortunately the rear channles are humming like mad, so am popping back there tomorrow to see if we can whip up some din to xlr leads, even if they only just reach, just to be sure there's no fault.

Otherwise no problems.

There is a guy on the avforums called Mark Grant who will make up top quality interconnects etc for a good price with any termination. All Canare stuff etc. I already have other leads from him and they are first class, so I'll end up buying from there I think. I believe in top quality for sensible money when it comes to cables. I've been through and come out the other side of exoticly priced leads etc.