Hi folks,

Does anyone think that there is a gap in the Naim's product line up for an all in one 5.1 surround sound amplifier? More importantly - supplied without a video player built in?

Something similar to the Supernait, but an AV Supernait - some sort of hybrid Supernait / nVi?

I know there is a positive argument for the nVi but for me that unit is fundamentally flawed as the DVD technology has been superseded already, BlueRay will also have a certain lifespan too - how long one can only guess? So any BlueRay nVi type product just does not appeal to me.

The one thing that's been great about Naim's 2 channel amps is that they have the potential for longevity, older amps still sound good today when properly serviced and maintained. They remain the 'heart' of any HiFi system, dealing with whatever new music source is thrown at them. That's why I love Naim amps! I just don't see that sort of longevity for the nVi type of products - as transports become more and more scarce as the unit ages etc (similar to Naim's CDP's) and of course the format for video playback changes for newer / better technology?

Just having a 5.1 channel integrated amp would be a fairly future proof item as its role would be to process the signal delivered to it and so power the speakers and sub, leaving playback for whatever new technology is to the fore. That signal could be DVD, BlueRay, internet HD download, HD satellite, or whatever is to follow, etc etc?

I just wondered if there was anyone else thinking along the same lines?

Cheers,

K

Kevin

I agree with you on this one.....an AV Supernait would be great on the face of it. It need would need at least 2, if not more, digital inputs and a similar quality DAC to that in the SuperNait, and as well as the speaker connections it would need to have connections for using external amps...interesting thought.

So, you could have 5 x 500's driving DBLs at the front, SL's for rear and the n-cent as well an n-sub to round things out....oh and a SuperCap to power the Super AVNait....then all we would need is a Naim Blu Ray player....

On second thoughts I'll stick with 2 channel HT setup for now!

Cheers

Jim

Yes I agree too.

However, I'm guessing that a lot of Naim "stereo" owners would add it to their system. It would be great if you could map the amplification for instance to bi-amp a centre or the rears if you just wanted to pre-out the front left and right.

I disagree with all this on one basis: the SuperNait has only two channels. If you added your mythical AV/SNait to a stereo system, you would only have 4 channels but you need 5!

In effect I thinik you want an AV2 combined with NAPV175, but with the power amps in the SuperNAIT. Now this would be very nice indeed in principle, but you're now edging toward a Naim Processor. If this had to come round there would need to be additions such as HDMI 1.3 breakout. Given the usual cost of Naim components I'd be surprised if you would get any change out of £4000. In the current climate I doubt that this would be a viable proposition.

How about this:

5 channels. Multi-mono-block design:
140 W/ 8 ohm
200 W/ 4 ohm

It is NOT a dream, it is a reality and it is called: 9B-SST from Bryston. Made for serious people

Yes but it isn't Naim. Stop advertising!

Nice teeth you have there Tuan.

Jim

Frank

quote:

In the current climate I doubt that this would be a viable proposition.

On that basis then Naim must have a hard time today selling anything above the basic systems....and you know that is not the case.

I think the global market for AV systems is huge compared to the specialist two channel market so there may be room for something at that price point.

Cheers

Jim

its a product i would like to see

neill

I think there would be a major queue for a 5 channel Supernait. Me included.
It meets the direct need for a high quaulity 5 channel sound amplification with stereo and as a basic position, but means you are not wedded to potentially obsolete DVD/HD DVD or whatever technology. Plus most users are likely to have their own CD player anyway.A winner.

I would like to see a Naim AV Amp.
The thing is though this market moves so fast,
and when Naim make something it normaly stays in that slot for a few years.
So i think its best left to the Japs.
Get a good Naim Audio system and use the Unity gain on a top flight Jap AV Amp and you can change it every year if you like.
It works for me that way and a lot of others with Naim.
Munch

Hi Kevin,

My thoughts exactly. Count me in the queue too.

Hi Munch,

I know the market moves fast but how would this product get left behind? Its basically a SuperNait that can amplify 5 channels (if the amps can fit in the chassis or it could have pre-outs)how many people are still using their Nait-2 - a timeless peice. Imagine a Nait-2 with pre-outs where you could connect some 140's for surround. Where would it be out of place today as a music and surround integrated amplifier? All the picture upscaling and sound formats would be processed by your source (as most can do) why replicate with a processor - I know people do but their are also those that want plain and simple quality of sound first.

Naim since birth have been making some of the worlds best if not the best amplifiers and preamps. It is upsetting to see so many problems in their AV range concerning software bugs and software upgrades every 5 minutes especially technology fsst left behind. A Super-AV-nait would not have these problems as it is what they do best a PREAMP and an AMPLIFIER that does surround without any loss in music playback. Timeless.

Arcam do it - I don't want Arcam. Cairn do it - I don't want Cairn. Talk do it - I don't want Talk. Densen do it but I would rather have Naim.

Regards Zorba

oh and as good as Bryston is its too expensive for me

quote:

Originally posted by zorba:
Hi Kevin,

My thoughts exactly. Count me in the queue too.

Hi Munch,

I know the market moves fast but how would this product get left behind? Its basically a SuperNait that can amplify 5 channels (if the amps can fit in the chassis or it could have pre-outs)how many people are still using their Nait-2 - a timeless peice. Imagine a Nait-2 with pre-outs where you could connect some 140's for surround. Where would it be out of place today as a music and surround integrated amplifier? All the picture upscaling and sound formats would be processed by your source (as most can do) why replicate with a processor - I know people do but their are also those that want plain and simple quality of sound first.

Naim since birth have been making some of the worlds best if not the best amplifiers and preamps. It is upsetting to see so many problems in their AV range concerning software bugs and software upgrades every 5 minutes especially technology fsst left behind. A Super-AV-nait would not have these problems as it is what they do best a PREAMP and an AMPLIFIER that does surround without any loss in music playback. Timeless.

Arcam do it - I don't want Arcam. Cairn do it - I don't want Cairn. Talk do it - I don't want Talk. Densen do it but I would rather have Naim.

Regards Zorba

oh and as good as Bryston is its too expensive for me

Arcam are good, but they keep costs down by being made in china.As for the others i wont go there as i like the Naim sound for my music.I had a n/vi and that was a fantastic all in one box.
If Naim did come out with a Super AV Nait you can put money on it being the best but within 3 months Arcam or the Sonys of this world, would will better it.
All i need a AV amp for is films and music dvds
I have a Sony that i can plug the whole world and his wife into, more hdmi coax spidifs/phono's i can pre amp it and loads more.
Its all you need for £400.99 You cant go wrong.
Unitygain this of your Naim system.
2 years time when its out of date get a new one.
Munch

Hi Munch,

I get what your saying.

But if Naim did come out with a Super AV Nait eg: Supernait as is + hdmi inputs for sound only + 5 internal amps how would the competition better it? Sony and everyone else can also add a tea maker but what about stereo sound? They are competing against a Naim integrated. What Sony receiver can better stereo of even the Nait5i. The Super AV Nait is not about bells and whistles but it has just done surround in a way they never will. The main point being its longetivity. It will always be an amplifier how can it get out dated? Which was the point I was trying to make with the Nait2. I also get the point about arcam but then we are talking about flavours which is why we are here.
Rgds Zorba

The Amp part would be good but you would be let down by the other in and outs ,They are going to change alot in the next few years.
Yes the Nait 2 and even the Nait 1 have stood the test of time. But would you spend £6 to £7,000 pound on a AV Amp now only to find you cant plug this box or that box into it after a year or so.
Because if Naim did one thats what it would cost.
I know i wont.
Munch

quote:

Originally posted by zorba:
I know the market moves fast but how would this product get left behind? Its basically a SuperNait that can amplify 5 channels

There's the problem ... most things are 5.1 now but with more 7.1 capable amps coming out. Only a few years ago 2.1 was the bees knees. In the same way that it's been suggested that DVD/Blu-Ray et al. are time limited, so, inevitably, will be the channel format.

Duncan

Duncan, most things are 7.1 now, please keep up.

Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz - these guys sell kit by the hundred thousand. Naim does not. This is why the volume manufacturers can both maintain the pace and R&D costs while keeping prices low.

At the same time HDMI is the most important connection method of the next few years. The fact is that the HDMI interface is far more than simply an AV interconnection method. It can be used in many more applications and yet the standards to support those applications have still not been agreed, let alone written. The licensing body is still only now trying to form a consortium to make these decisions. the likes of Denon, Sony, et al have a market which doesn't expect to be future-proofed - Naim's market isn't like that.

When Naim produce something they make it as good as they can to last as long as possible in order to recoup the development costs over time. Given that the average AV receiver lasts a total of 5 minutes, this just doesn't work. As already acknowledged my most, the n-Vi and the AV2 sound fabulous for music - far better than the volume manufacturers, and for less money! However, neither AV2 nor n-Vi can be expected to be on a constant upgrade path to support everything under the sun when those standards haven't been written yet.

Someone on here said that the majors would simply produce something that sounded better in the following 6 months. Well, the n-Vi has been out for 3 years now and nobody has come close yet, not Arcam with their Solos, nor even with their full-size separates at similar money, so I dispute that point. The limitations simply remain the limitations of supported formats which are far more expensive.

The idea of providing a 5.1 all-in-one processor is very appealing indeed, in no small measure to myself. Throw it into a double height box and provide the connectivity for HDMI and that would be wonderful. But what happens when some new Profile comes out or when a new handshaking protocol is developed? Can we expect Naim customers to junk their very expensive AV receivers for new ones with open arms, or can we expect them to bleat about it on the forum 'til the cows come home? I'm willing to bet it'd be the latter.

It would certainly be foolish for Naim to spend a huge amount of money developing something along these lines just now, when even the audio formats for BluRay have yet to be standardized. It doesn't really concern me too much, early adoption always equates to wasted money in my experience. Be happy with your DVDs for the time being. Look at CD, in comparison a very simple format, only now are CDPs starting to achieve playback quality that can compete with a good vinyl set-up and the CD has been around almost two decades!!! Admittedly, the research put into digital sound with CDs will benefit all future digital audio technologies, but the increased complexity of new formats will still take a good few years for even the most accomplished engineers to be able to make a playback system that gets the best performance out of them.

Good point. I did not think about further advance in connection tecnology but then again how long have RCA and DIN connections been around? It could be that HDMI could be the new RCA in the digital world which should guarantee a long life.

£6-7000? Would it really cost that much? The n-Vi has it all plus a cd/dvd player thrown in for +/- £2800. I would say a Supernait + hdmi's + multi ins + n-Vi amp modules inside = £3800-4500? Although you wont be getting a dvd player thrown in, the extra expense over the n-Vi would be for serious stereo performance.

Although 7.1 is now the norm pre-outs could be included for the extra channels for those that can fit the extra speakers.

I dont think that Naim would need to spend time in R&D to make an audiophille multi channel amplifier they've been making them since their beginning in 2 channel form.

Zorba

Zorba,

RCA and DIN were merely connections. The real complexity lies behind HDMI in terms of the software protocols for HDMI devices to talk to each other. That never even existed when RCA/DIN were invented - the only requirement was that they had a certain impedance (at least that was the case for DIN).

The n-Vi does not 'have it all'. It has all the main codecs of the 90s. It does not have the HDMI connection, which would account for a hefty licensing fee just by itself, nor does it have 7.1 capability, nor (obviously) the hi-def codecs, which it can't do without HDMI and which also have hefty licensing fees associated. These licensing fees have to be recouped somehow and if a new AV product had to pay for it, it would either have to recoup it through volume or through price. Since Naim doesn't usually sell in high volume, it'll be price. I'm not saying that something like this would be £6-7000, but even at £4500 it'd be in a rarified stratosphere of AV receivers.

all

these points don't make sense at all. Ok its costs £4,500 to buy but its made by naim and should be better than everything else on the market. Are we now saying that Naim can't do it better than denon,etc.

Ok these companies sell more units and can spend more on r&d.

So whats the point in a 555 is it now the case a sony player at £4,000 would wipe the floor with it.

No the answer is it has naim amps that naim thing that makes this companies products special and not mass production. Its why we all buy Naim

Neill

quote:

Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
all

these points don't make sense at all. Ok its costs £4,500 to buy but its made by naim and should be better than everything else on the market. Are we now saying that Naim can't do it better than denon,etc.

Ok these companies sell more units and can spend more on r&d.

So whats the point in a 555 is it now the case a sony player at £4,000 would wipe the floor with it.

No the answer is it has naim amps that naim thing that makes this companies products special and not mass production. Its why we all buy Naim

Neill

Why things made by naim should be better than everything else on the market? This is a serious assumption that may not be true

Hi Frank,

Fair comment. I did not think of the big licensing fees involved in having HDMI connection

Hi Frank,

Fair comment. I did not think of the big licensing fees involved in including HDMI connections. What I was trying to distinguish is that it would not be referred to as a receiver but as a multi channel amplifier and just that. This should give it a longer life for as long as the current Naim stereo range then relying on modern sources for video direct to display and sound direct to amp (I think some also offer ethernet connectivity and maybe source switching?). Aswell as longetivity and no software problems focus would be to have musical performance on par or thereabouts with the Supernait for this I would give up the receiver tea maker.

I like the idea for me because as much as I beleive that (most)movies should be heard in surround -please don't tell me Spiderman sounds better in 2.1 - I would not like to sacrifice stereo performance. My options are the n-Vi and AV2+amps. In both options you would need to integrate a nac122x or above for more serious stereo. If we could take the more expensive option being the AV2+amps the actual preamp of the AV2 compares to Nait5i-112x level. For my £2500 I would lose all the processing power in order to have a near enough nac202 level multi channel amplifier which keeps me with 1 box and 1 volume knob.

As we are just discussing what could be, regarding the n-Vi and AV2 which are real I agree. I am a genuine customer for one of them. I think that if there is any money to be spent it should be to provide connection upgrade boards eg.HDMI to both units which would please all current owners and the ones holding back like me. Voila! increased sales to pay for HDMI and longetivity!I would still buy the n-Vi even though it is dvd based its just the sound restrictions that are holding me back, same goes for AV2.

Zorba