I am new to home cinema so please be gentle with me if my questions are a bit stupid.

I have just got my hifi sorted out and would now like to make a start on an AV system. I don't watch too many DVDs so don't want to spend too much money. I currently have all Naim hifi and an Arcam 79 DVD player. I currently use SBL speakers and have a spare set of IBLs that I was thinking of using as rear speakers.

My dealer has 2nd hand AV1 for sale at £250. I can also pick up NAPV 175 for £800. I know I will need centre speaker but currently can't afford Naim speaker so will pick up cheap "make-do" model until funds permit. Eventually I will get AV2 (presumably AV3 by the time I can afford it) and possibly DVD5.

Is this a stupid way of doing things? Is AV1 obsolete? Are there modes/functions on AV1 that I am likely to need when watching DVDs? Would i be just better off getting arcam av amp?

Rest of system is CDS3/252/300/SBLs

Richard

The AV1 will not provide center-channel signals, nor will it decode digital bitstreams. It works well as an "ambience" processor, but is not as well-suited to current AV requirements (digital inputs, AV system controller options) as the newer AV2.

Richard

I would give the AV1 a miss, as David says its not really up to the job, I would suggest any of the following:-

s/h Yamaha DSP-E800 although not the latest and greatest works very well in Naim systems, includes power amp for centre and rears. Expect to pay £80-£120

s/h Arcam AVR200, full AV amplifier Expect to pay around £350 - note I have one of these and in a friends Naim system the Arcam remote also drove his NAC52 meaning that we had to block off the NAC52 remote receiver (his unit had no inity gain input)

Arcam AVR300 s/h £800ish new £1100+ Current generation model, more powerful amplifier than the AVR200

All of the above can be used with or without the NAPV175, however if you can push the boat out a little I would suggest using the NAPV175 with a s/h Meridian 568.1 (£800-£1000). I currently have a Meridian 568.2 and it is streets ahead of the Arcam unit.

Depending on your speaker proximity to the video display you may find that for the time being you can run without a centre, putting the AV processor into Phantom Centre mode. I run this way as my Shahinian Arcs are positioned at the bottom left and right corners of my projector screen.

Hope that helps

Mr Perceptive

I think you should determine first where you want to go : high end HC system like your HiFi ?

In that case, you could go for another processor (old Cyrus/Rotel/other) to run, at first, a 4 channel system with a NAP 150/200 on rear.
Later you could go for a NAP V145 + Naim center speaker that would be more coherent with the 300 /SBL on front (matching front/center power/speaker is very important in HC)
Then replace the processor with AV2/3, DVD 5 etc etc ...

In a lower end system you can go for the NAP V175 + your center speaker but another processor is required.

All that being said, the AV1 does remarkable things as an "ambience" processor and anyone wanting to add an extra dimension to two-channel replay would do well to beat a path to Richard's dealer's door. (It cost in excess of £1500 new.)

You'd need a power amp and a pair of speakers as well, of course, but the power supply is (unusually) built-in.

I have mine switched in permanently. And I've still never been able to get the LED display to light up beyond the first segment.

G

As a AV1 owner/user I would second graham55's comments above. The AV1 does not provide state-of-the-art processing but as an addition to a god Naim stereo set-up it works a treat. I use it mainly for listeneing to music and for the odd occasion I bring a projector home from work over a week-end for films.

Rather than getting a 175 why not cut costs further by buying a second hand 140 or similar.

Hans
(LP12/CDS/52/135/NBL/AV1/250/Kans)

Hans

Do your LED segments ever light up?

And does anyone out there (Salisbury, even) have a spare AV1 brochure that Ithey don't want? I have a pretty poor photocopy, and this model doesn't feature on Naim's forum.

G

Thank you all for your replies.

Seems the general consensus is to give the AV1 a miss. The rest depends on how much I want to spend (as usual .)

I think at present I just want a fairly basic AV system with upgradability in the future.

Cheers
Richard

Just buy the Yamaha DSP-E800 s/h, if you don't like it you can always flog it for approx what you paid. It will give you a taste of what you can expect.

Mr Perceptive

Yeah. I think that was the conclusion I was coming to as well

Richard

I'd second the Yamaha move. On the off chance you can't get one, or they're discontinued (certainly not available here in OZ) the other option would be a reasonably decent AV receiver with preouts - use it to do the decoding, pre outs to the Naim for the fronts, and internal amps to drive the centre speaker and rears.

You also have the flexibilty then to develop a separate HC system in another room should you so desire - most amps have full 7.1 capability these days.

Depending upon your bias, Arcam is better at music than HC, but of course will do both, Denon is well regarded for HC, and I'd add Yamaha and Sony to the mix as well - especially on the HC decoding where they really are very good.

Good luck with it, and hope this helps

Regards

John..

There are 5 DSP-E800's on eBay (UK) now, so finding one shouldn't be too difficult!

If you want the Arcam then contact me through with PFM or ZeroGain and I might be able to help out (AVR200), however unless your Naim Pre has a unity gain input I think there will be volume control issues with the Arcam remote. I also think the Arcam struggles more than the Yamaha with difficult speaker loads, but thats my experince of an AVR200 and a DSP-E800.

I understand the AVR300 doesn't have these issues, but it would we worthwhile checking it out before parting with the hard earned cash!

For what its worth my wife liked the extra detail on the Arcam but its lack of driving power meant that she was unhappy with spaceships, not enough bass (Good Woman!), so in conclusion the Yamaha is good for action movies but if costume drama is your bag then the Arcam may well suit better than the Yamaha.

Mr Perceptive

Just read the 252 manual and it does have unity gain facility. What is the difference between a budget A/V amp (like Denon 2105) and more expesive arcam AVR 300? Is it just the difference in power amps or is it also the way the digital signal is processed? I presume it's a bit of both. What's more important for the sound the processing or the power amps? Pesumably the power amps cab be upgraded with off board power amps like NAPV 175? How are these connected?. For the present I think I'm only going to need at the most 5.1 sound, I can't imagine my wife wanting 7 speakers in our front room.

Thank you again

Richard

Richard said:

quote:

What is the difference between a budget A/V amp (like Denon 2105) and more expesive arcam AVR 300? Is it just the difference in power amps or is it also the way the digital signal is processed? I presume it's a bit of both. What's more important for the sound the processing or the power amps? Pesumably the power amps cab be upgraded with off board power amps like NAPV 175? How are these connected?.

Not a lot between an amp like a Denon and an Arcam IMHO - cant' tell you where the Denon is made, but the Arcam is defnintely made in China. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get sucked into the 'it's British therefore it's superior' mentality.

The Arcam IMHO is better suited to a one box role for music and movies, with music being the priority. As Mr perceptive points out, a lack of driving power for movies is something I also noted with Arcams products, which is one of the reasons I did not choose them for HT duties (given that i already had my Naim 2 channel Hifi)

Re processing/power amps - both. IMV, Denon do very well re processing - they use state of the art bought in chipsets to do the job, just like Naim with the AV2.

On the other hand, Yamaha and Sony use a mix of proprietary and bought in technology, favouring the former. As regards the processing, Yamaha has over 20 years experience in DSP processing, and Sony builds many of the worlds leading professional mixing desks, recording consoles etc - all of which technology 'trickles' down in one form or other to their consumer products.

One needs an amp with a lot of headroom for the large dynamics of movies, plus the ability to play loud for long periods. Processing is pivotal, not just to retrieval of information, but HOW that information is presented. Remember, we are talking HT here, NOT stereo, so steering (and speed thereof), accurate focus of sounds around the room in a 360 degree plane all comes into it, as does the ability to suspend sounds in a locatable 'place' within the soundfield, as regards the horizontal and vertical angle.

The other thing worth mentioning with processing is that in order to recreate a sense of 'being' at the movies, or if you will 'within' the movie/spaceship etc, as against just looking at/hearing it at the far end of the room, one needs a sense of being in a large space. IMV, this is where the proprietary DSP used by Sony and Yamaha has a real edge in bringing a greater sense of immersion and involvement within a movie. Indeed (and it is hearsay) I have read that the DSP processing of Sony is only bettered by the likes of Lexicon or perhaps meridian. High praise indeed when you think about it.

Provided any AV amp you decide on has preouts, you can pretty much 'add on' whatever external amps you choose. However, with the better Denons, Sonys, and Yamahas etc, I'd be surprised if you felt you needed to do that quite honestly - they're a lot better than you might think.

Hope this helps

Best Regards

John...

Broadly I agree with John, if you're buying a 1K amp and want it for movies only then Denon et al are great, if you want to play a fair bit of stereo through the same system then Arcam (IMHO) has the advantage. Do check out the amps capabilities in driving your rear speakers if buying new, there will be a difference.

I'd still dip your toe in the water with the Yamaha DSP-E800 (I have heard them work well in two different Naim systems) and although not State Of The Art, they are cheap (and can be re-sold easily) so you can get a taster of whether surround is for you.

Be warned though it can be very addictive I went from Yamaha DSP E800 with little Celestion rears -> Arcam AVR200 still with Celestions then with Quad22L rears -> Meridian 568.2 + 2x Meridian 557s + Quad22Ls for rears in less than a year!!!

But now I'm really happy where I am (with no Naim kit anymore incidently). I'm using one 557 to drive a pair of Shahinian Arcs (something the Arcam really struggled with) and the other to drive the Quad 22Ls (I running a phantom centre, my Arcs are positioned at the bottom corners of my PJ screen and no Sub (the Arcs go below 32Hz). Transports are provided by a mid price Deneon DVD player and a Squeezebox. All processing is done by the Meridian 568.2 which is a stunning piece of kit for both 2 channel decoding and movie sound. Incidently my 568.2 as ex-demo with full guarantee was comfortable less than a new AV2.

Mr Perceptive

Thanks for all your advice.

I think I'll get myself a DSP-E800 to start with and see how I go from there.

Richard

Richard, I may have something to interest you...

I had an Arcam AVR300 and i found it coped with HT and music extremely well considering it is a 'multi-purpose' amp. i have now upgraded to the Arcam pre/power combo which is even better.

The best thing to do is get down your local dealer and let your ears (and of course, wallet) do the deciding for you.

We can all waffle on about how good this is and that is blah blah blah but at the end of the day its up to you.

That said i would definately give the Arcam a serious demo. I dont think you will be disappointed IMHO.

Regards
Jason

Richard

I realise this thread is a few weeks old but is that AV1 still for sale? I would like some surround sound more music based like dynavector superstereo and wondered if the AV1 was suitable. You can e-mail me on tox6280@aol.com if you wish.

Regards
Jeff

Jeff

The AV1 is a hugely underestimated piece of equipment in Naim's earlier product range. I've even seen it described as Naim's worst ever product - probably by someone who's never heard what it can do!

Graham

Is there an American version of the Yamaha DSP-E800? I'm not finding anything on the web that suggests that there is.

Thanks!

Just checked my DSP-E800 and it's 240v only so it looks like you couldn't import a UK version and would need to source a 120v one (if they did one)

Oh, come on chaps! This is a wonderful piece of Naim history.

G

Hi Graham - all the AV1 does is to introduce a delay between front and back speakers right?
Vik

Vik,

It introduces a delay of something between 10-15 ms but also does some processing. It is basically similar to the Hafler or Dolby surround systems used prior to digital solutions. It basically outputs full range L-R channel info on one rear channel and R-L on the the other (but it is more sophisticated than this).

br

Hans

Thanks Hans!

Vik

Hans has explained better than I could have managed. But do try to listen to one in a two channel music system - it does more than you would imagine. If you're into home theatre, though, wait for the n-Vi!

Graham

Hans: Do you have one?

quote:

Me

Yes Graham, I've got one as I mentioned above. I like it a lot. Music sounds more organic and realistic and more dynamic (possibly less hi-fi).

Obvously it fills the room better than two-channel. This may be the reason that I tend to listen at, what I percieve to be, lower volume when it is connected. (Generally I feel that I have to turn the sound up to a certain level before it sounds 'right'. The perceived volume when this happens, not only the volume setting, is lower with the AV1 connected).

br

Hans