Or Rwanda....



Tony

Why are various African nations in a mess;
isn't it largely due to the history of colonisation?
The end of this created 'new' countries causing ethnic/religious tensions,
along with a power vacuum.

Zimbabwe is a former British colony so I think we have a moral duty to help.
Iraq is an example both of the effects colonisation,
& the risks of making things worse when we try to 'help'.

quote:

Originally posted by 555:

Why are various African nations in a mess;
isn't it largely due to the history of colonisation?

555, your emoticon brings to mind something an old teacher of mine said that has remained with me ever since: It's not the shit, it's the fan.

Anyway, I agree with your assessment regarding the aftermath of imperialism. Those who wonder why Africa is generally in such bad shape would also do well to consider that the Caucasian/Western/European/American powers have never been eager to help out that much when it comes to people with darker skin and different culture, especially if there are no resources to plunder.

Fred

Nelson Mandela, South Africa, Souhern African Nations in general and the United Nations (as usual) have absolutely nothing to be proud of in relation to Zimbabwe and Mugabe. a slap on the wrist would have been more meaningful.

Southern African States have stated time and time time again, that an "African" solution is needed in Zimbabwe. I am disappointed with their current perception of success.

Cheers

Don

Don

quote:

Southern African States have stated time and time time again, that an "African" solution is needed in Zimbabwe. I am disappointed with their current perception of success.

I agree 100% with you (watch out for the flying pigs!).

Cheers

Jim

Though the allocation of state borders that resulted from Colonialism certainly has left a big problem for some countries in Africa and elsewhere, it is the inherent racism of the peoples of some of these countries which is the problem in so many cases, and blaming the old Colonial Powers for today's problems is hypocritical.

It is interesting that many countries outside Africa have managed this transition to self-determination very well indeed, and the success of India might be seen as exemplary of how to move forward after a period of Colonial Governemnt. Why has this not been emulated in so many cases in Africa? I have no answer to that.

But we live in times where it is fashionable for people to blame others rather than attempt to find solutions off their own initiative. In this case others who died generations ago are responsible for the wrong allocation of the said borders. It is convenient to blame the present generation of people in the Ex-colonial powers, and pretend that they want to "re-colonise" and so on, when the reality is that many of these Ex-colonies depend, even generations after they were given self-determination, on the Aid of the former Colonial Masters in spite of have been left with decent infrastructures of agriculture, education, railways and so forth. In far too many cases these have been ruined by an inability at the governmental level to manage even the most basic economic and state functions once independence has been gained. Mugabe is the worst current case in charge of an ex-British Colony, but there are other lesser examples.

When are these countries going to do more than hold there hands out for unending aid, while still blaming their old Colonists for problems that are really caused by their own racism and corruption? This in spite of the wish of the current generation of people in the old Colonial Powers to help. Often this help is then called a form of neo-colonialism! I am not saying all Aid is perfect, but the street does seem to run one way only.

You cannot help some people, and after fifty or so years they should have matured enough to work out ways forward that do not involve genocide and other demonstrations of a lack of decent human values. That this lack of values is endemic in Africa is shown by the lack of action to help root out the problem by their fellow African counties' governemts.

I doubt if there is anything to be done to help these people in reality. It will merely be scandered in another generation of ultra-corrupt, self -serving dictatorships.

George

innocent people are gonna die thats a fact wether mugabe is in power or not...so get rid of him sooner rather than later.

Dear All,

It is not racism .

It Is Tribalsim

Nationhood

Religion

Also the leaders of these fly begotten countries have stolen all the wealth of thier own countries.

Many years ago my Brothers wife lived in Cape Town working in a good Hotel.

The Janitor in the hotel was not south african but mozambiquan.

She asked him why he leeft a country where he was a FIRST CLASS CITIZEN and moved to a country where he was a third class ctizen.

His reply was succinct.

In mozambiqu he was hungry unemployed and had a family to feed.

In S.A. he had a job his wife had a job, his kids went to school he had a home etc and there was ample food on the table.

He loved SA.

regards David

quote:

Though the allocation of state borders that resulted from Colonialism certainly has left a big problem for some countries in Africa and elsewhere, it is the inherent racism of the peoples of some of these countries which is the problem in so many cases, and blaming the old Colonial Powers for today's problems is hypocritical.

I see your point George. If there had been no colonialism the people of the nations would still have had wars, etc. However the effects of colonialism have undoubtedly made things much worse. Racism is inherent in all countries because it is human nature IMHO. I don't see this as appointing blame, but the better we understand the cause the more likely we are to find a solution.

quote:

the success of India ...

Whilst it may be a success relative to some former colonial countries, India is another 'invented' nation along with Pakistan & Bangladesh. These nations have the same tensions caused by their former colonial masters departing. India & Pakistan have been to war with each other three times since partition in 1947. It was only a couple of years ago that India & Pakistan nearly came to nuclear blows over Kashmir.

quote:

...even generations after they were given self-determination, on the Aid of the former Colonial Masters in spite of have been left with decent infrastructures of agriculture, education, railways and so forth. In far too many cases these have been ruined by an inability at the governmental level to manage even the most basic economic and state functions once independence has been gained.

But in the often hasty exit of self-determination the resulting power vacuum destabilises the country & that is the source of many problems. We may consider we leave 'decent infrastructure' behind, but this is alien to the culture of the people. In imposing our culture & values we cause more problems, however good the intention. Is it surprising a 'new' nation emerging from what was effectively an invasion has trouble coping, considering they don't have the knowledge to run the governmental & other structures imposed on them?

quote:

You cannot help some people, and after fifty or so years they should have matured enough to work out ways forward that do not involve genocide and other demonstrations of a lack of decent human values. That this lack of values is endemic in Africa is shown by the lack of action to help root out the problem by their fellow African counties' governments.

Considering the damage done by colonialism I don't think your timescale is realistic. Genocide can happen wherever there are ethnic or other tensions. These are worst in Africa because it was the most heavily colonised part of the world, but the former Yugoslavia demonstrates it's not an African problem. Considering western states use of torture & kidnapping I don't think we are in a position to feel superior about values.

quote:

It will merely be squandered in another generation of ultra-corrupt, self -serving dictatorships.

These dictators gain power as a result of the power vacuum caused by the exit of the colonising country.

Dear John,

I don't think we are really so far apart in our views, and indeed the business of "the power vacuum" in newly self-determining nations has caused very great problems. Perhaps India already had some very big leaders waiting, and so was held together long enough to mature in a basically stable entity. I quite agree that the tension with Pakistan has been very difficult. Once again this is a question of drawing lines on maps ...

Thanks for you reply. George

Dear All,

Mugabe has achieved every politicians dream.

A Democratic election process where he is the only candidate.

Also he wins by a mile even though not many turned up to vote.

So here we have the new democracy.

Scare the Bejesus out of your oppostion, encourage the electorate to vote for you.

And there you have the Mugabe Solution

A Fair and free election where he is the only candidate.

Would resolve the Hilary and Barak problem of spending x hundred million just to select a candiadate to stand in the election.

A funny world.

regards David

Drawing lines on maps?

No need to look further afield than England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales. Alex Salmon isn't much more than a shit stirer.

But if you do need to look further afield, try Norway/Sweden. It doesn't always have to be doom and gloom.

And whatever happened to Prussia?

Christ, the list goes on and on.

It isn't drawing the lines that is the problem. Its the bloody people. Power crazy, greedy, selfish bastards like Mugabe.

They are not unique to Africa.

They don't depend on a pre-colonial existence.

Cheers

Don

quote:

And there you have the Mugabe Solution

A Fair and free election where he is the only candidate.

Could be the basis of the "African" solution we have heard so much about from the surrounding counties.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Would resolve the Hilary and Barak problem of spending x hundred million just to select a candiadate to stand in the election.

I thought Hillary needed a little bit more practice at smiling through her teeth and saying nice things about Obama through her teeth, when I saw the few sound-bites on telly last night of their new Hampshire "let's rally the troops" double-act.

cheers

Don

Dear All,

So she sounds like a loser in pain.

Physical

Emotional

Financial

Hope she feels it was worth it.

After all there is nothing the Yanks love more than some one who tried but failed.

regards David

It was close, but guess who won ?

quote:

It was close, but guess who won ?

"One man, one vote" - The African solution!

Cheers

Don