Dear All,

heard on the radio here this evening was the talk of London and High Society.

Blair et spouse bonked at the PALACE .

Also the reason for the subsequent conception was that Cherie did not have acccess to her usual CONTRACEPTIVE DEVICE.

Hope that the Pope was not listening.

Also i wonder what was said come confession time and what was the subsequent penance.

I always believed that she was a puritan catholic.

I always thought catholics used the calendar method of contraception not a mechanical device.

OOOOEEERRRRRRR Mother

Queen: Did you sleep well last night Prime Minister?

Ton: I was UPPPP all night Maammm.

regards david

David,

The issue of contraception is somewhat contentious to most Catholics. Catholicism is not nearly as dogmatic as some would have you believe, or indeed as it might once have been. Although there is an official line on contraception (that quite possibly needs revisiting), the Church doesn't excommunicate people who don't go along with it, and the vast majority of younger Catholics in the West probably do use some form of contraception. Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

Regards,


Dom
(Read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!)

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
David,

The issue of contraception is somewhat contentious to most Catholics. Catholicism is not nearly as dogmatic as some would have you believe, or indeed as it might once have been. Although there is an official line on contraception (that quite possibly needs revisiting), the Church doesn't excommunicate people who don't go along with it, and the vast majority of younger Catholics in the West probably do use some form of contraception. Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

Regards,


Dom
(Read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!)

Sane post, if I may say so Dom. Having read Dawkins 'The God Delusion' you might also be interested to read 'The Dawkins Delusion' by Alistair McGrath. Indeed, for a balanced view, I would encourage anyone to read the latter if they have read the former.

I have been meaning too, a friend who is just about to finish a Divinity Masters has promised me the loan of his copy after his exams!

quote:

catholic contraceptive devices

Good oxymoron David!

Dom
Such a shame then that this compassionate church is lying to people in Africa telling them condoms don't work as a barrier to AIDS.

If that is happening, and I don't doubt that some overzealous preachers come out with such nonsense, it's not something I would condone. Nor do I think that the Church itself condones people telling blatant falsehoods any more than it encourages them to petrol bomb abortion clinics. You get nut jobs who attach themselves to every organization, your failure to make this separation is much like the "all Muslims are terrorists" nonsense. You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

There was a documentary about on C4 (IMSMC) which I watched recently.
It reported there was & is a widespread conspiracy to spread misinformation in Africa about AIDS/condoms by the Catholic Church.

This goes to the top of the Catholic Church in Africa,
& the Vatican has taken no action.
The evidence was damning IMHO,
& certainly isn't "some overzealous preachers".

Oh, so C4 have got bored of trying to disprove global warming with unbalanced and very selectively edited documentaries, and moved onto the Catholic Church have they? It wouldn't surprise me that much if this misinformation was widespread in the African Church, ideas move about in any community, but a conspiracy? I suppose the CIA orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?

Dom
step back. You start by saying if this is happening so revealing you know nothing about it, then you speak as if you are an authority on a channel 4 documentary you haven't seen.
Go away.
Do some research.
Come back to discuss from a base of informed opinion.

start here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7014335.stm
or here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids
or are the BBC and the Guardian part of the conspiracy too?

Like all Public Service Broadcasters in the UK, C4 have a duty of balance in reporting.
I saw the global warming doc'; what I took away is GW is happening, but the doubters point that it's unproven human activity is the cause is true, however unhelpful it might be in dealing with climate change. I disagree either doc' was selectively edited, & I speak as a one time TV editor. When people don't like what they hear or read they claim it's biased &/or untrue.

For example the BBC receives a similar number of complaints from Conservatives & Labour,
both claiming it has a bias in favour of the other.

I appreciate it is unpalatable Dom, but a conspiracy is (amongst other things) when a coordinated group work together to commit wrongful or illegal actions.
That's what happened in the African CC re: spreading Condoms/AIDS misinformation,
& the Vatican has effectively done nowt.

I doubt you think the CIA orchestrated the 9/11 attacks any more than I do,
but the relationship between the USA government & The House of Saud over the decades
is not what it seems at a glance.

Bob,

Am I ignorant because I differentiate between doctrinal hardliners and the vast majority of ordinary rational Catholics, and I take everything I read or see with a certain degree of cynicism? Not least sensationalist documentaries and the reporting of a left wing paper on religion.

I must admit that I have not devoted a lot of time to this specific issue, but I am well versed on the larger debate surrounding the Church, HIV and condoms. As someone who has studied Politics, Philosophy and Religion at a University level and indeed the somewhat murky ground between them I feel I am at least as qualified to comment in an internet forum, as anyone who is likely to not consider using their intellect in such a way a complete waste of time. I happen to have a very high opinion of a lot of people on this forum, although sometimes the prevalence of citing the interpretation of media outlets as solid and unbiased fact makes me cringe.

It is interesting that the Guardian article tries to cite this as the official position of the Holy See, yet the statements of the Pontifical Council, which set out the official position of the Church merely note that they cannot morally support the promotion of the use of condoms, and that they feel that it is effectively a patch that does not address the real problem of promiscuity. It isn't a position I agree with, but nor is it the Church telling people to sleep around without condoms.

I honestly feel that the reporting is selective, my Chaplain at the University quite openly said that we should use condoms IF we had sex outside marriage. He had worked as a missionary in Africa, and said that that sort of thinking was prevalent amongst most younger western Priests. The lesser of two evils as it were, or the lesser harm.

I do not honestly believe that there is some sort of conspiracy on the part of the Church? Nor do I think that the media is conspiring against the Church, although I do think that their reporting is very subjective, and often lacks a wider understanding. I am also of the opinion that C4 often runs documentaries based on the fact that controversy surrounding respected institutions or even established fact is good for ratings.

I also think that the way the Guardian article is written, and indeed some of your own comments on this thread show a profound ignorance of the way the Church works. The BBC are somewhat fairer, rightly attributing the view expressed to a single Archbishop, and not once implying that it is a universal view within the Church.

Regards,


Dom

quote:

You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

Hmmm. That'll be the ones who actually write and preach the policies then.

quote:

the official position of the Church merely note that they cannot morally support the promotion of the use of condoms

This religious dogma results in AIDs & other STDs being spread,
causing massive suffering.

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

quote:

You are prejudiced against 1 billion Catholics on the basis that some of them are idiots?

No on their choice of religion,if indeed they ever made a choice!

quote:

Originally posted by djftw:
... Also "Puritan-Catholic" is something of a contradiction in terms, as a Puritan rejects the theological basis of the Church as an institution!

[I] read "The God Delusion" and decided that I'd rather be a bad Catholic than an Atheist!

Regards, Dom

Agreed on both points. And the part before was abreath of sane fresh air.

George

quote:

I appreciate it is unpalatable Dom, but a conspiracy is (amongst other things) when a coordinated group work together to commit wrongful or illegal actions.
That's what happened in the African CC re: spreading Condoms/AIDS misinformation,
& the Vatican has effectively done nowt.

I would disagree that there is any evidence of a co-ordinated attempt to spread misinformation. Those who are spreading misinformation seem quite convinced of the veracity of what they are saying. Even if there is such an intentional campaign of misinformation, it is not the official line of the Church, and although some individuals within the Church could be said to be conspiring I still think it is wrong to point the finger of blame at the Church itself, much as it is unfair to blame Islam for the conspiring of the various disparate radical elements that seem to have united under the banner of Al Qeada.

That The Holy See hasn't done something to real them in and rectify the wrong, is something that upsets me, and I very sincerely hope that they will.

quote:

This religious dogma results in AIDs & other STDs being spread,
causing massive suffering.

Well, if people actually were following the dogma it wouldn't be at all, the line is as it has been for most of the past 2000 years 'only have sex within a monogamous marriage'. The whole condom thing is something of a sideline. I cannot for the life of me understand how someone could come to the conclusion that it is fine to break the 7th Commandment, but not to break another, much less prominent rule whilst doing so. The Holy See's position on condoms is not subject to an Infallible Declaration, so the position is effectively a legal opinion, not necessarily a statement of fact, it is still very much open to debate.

quote:

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

I don't even know where to start with what is wrong with that question. Sufficed to say if Jesus was on Earth the theologians could stop pontificating and just ask what the Church is supposed to be doing.

quote:

No on their choice of religion,if indeed they ever made a choice!

Always a pleasure to meet tolerant people.

quote:

a breath of sane fresh air

As are you very frequently George!


Regards all,


Dom

Whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. Many spiritually-minded persons demostrate a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which shouldn't be dismissed because of sometimes justifiable prejudice against organised religion.

Then we disagree Dom, because I see much credible evidence.
The root of Al Qaeda is in Islam & it is a form of religious extremism.
The AIDS/condom misinformation conspiracy in Africa was within the CC & borne of extremism, but the difference is it was within the church & no action from H.Q.
Mainstream Islam rejects extremism a la Al Qaeda.

My issue isn't with mainstream Islam any more than the CC,
it's with religious extremism & all the dreadful acts conducted in the name of /under the shield of religions. For example the Paedophile scandal & cover-up in the Catholic Church in The U.S.A.

I think you've missed the point re: the AIDS/Condom misinformation CC conspiracy in Africa.
The lies about condoms communicated by the CC in Africa have resulted in many AIDS infections & deaths. That people do/don't follow CC dogma or 'Commandments' is irrelevant.

The only wrong question is one you already know the answer to.
My point is the CC, like most Christian sects, don't appear to follow Christ's teachings.
For example the CC is vastly wealthy, so why not use that wealth to alleviate poverty & hunger? If big J was amongst us do you think he would praise the actions of the CC?

quote:

If Jesus was on Earth now do you think he would be a member of the CC Dom?

Presumably he would still be a Jew and wondering where the hell this Christianity thing sprang up from.

After reading the Amazon reviews of the Dawkin delusion I don't think I'll bother with it.

Or put another way..
I'm an athiest, it does not matter if you can show me that my position is wrong. I'm not going to believe you! Sound familiar ?