4:31 #23
Security²

Next year (ALL) visitors to the US will be required to be photographed and fingerprinted before entry, I wonder if anybody has any comments on the subject ?
After WWII the British Police requested that the wartime ID Cards be scrapped because it demeanered their public relations, and was promptly done. ID cards in UK has always been a contentious issue, and I believe there's an earlier FRED on it here somewhere too, if I remember correctly? Here in Germany everybody has to register with the local cops at their official address, which I hear does help catch those cheating-scrounging bastards on the Rock & Roll, innit.

Fritz Von Mebeingoneofaforementionedscallys.

Graham Ricketts Keepin on Bloggin:

I have an awful feeling that the American requirement will be used as the ideal excuse for the UK Government to force ID cards into final reality again.

The good old BBC did a "fill in" piece during a recent 6 o'clock news on the format and machines designed to produce UK ID cards which would indeed have a fingerprint aswell as a photograph. Of course there would be all sorts of info disguised as "helpfull" encoded into the smart chip, such as criminal activities along side health info.

I am not sure how long British Citizens abroad can escape this but over here the ID card is pretty innocuous by the standards outlined above and to some extent refelects the fact that you are not obligated to give personal information beyond the bare name and address in most cases.

I will also be interested to see how the Americans cope with the logistics of implementing this for the large number of visitors they get. You could imagine miles long qeues either at airports and embassies. The new slogans for the airlines will be "turn up today , fly tomorrow"

GEOFFP

Given that our passport has a unique ID number, our photograph and signature - surely all they could do would be scan the ID tag and take a fingerprint..............

And imagine the damages case if the ink was to stain your suit - it's good old US of A !!!

Imagine the damages case if the ink caused a skin disease

How about giving us all ID plates to wear (like number plates) and installing a GATSO at passport control

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Next year (ALL) visitors to the US will be required to be photographed and fingerprinted before entry, I wonder if anybody has any comments on the subject ?

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I have intended to go to the US for the last 25 years. Now it seems I can put this idea out of my head and use the time wasted on "planning" this event for something else and more useful.

If the Americans like to become a police state (Sweden, where I live, already is one), it's their problem. I don't have to go there.

JohanR

Johan:

If you want to go, then go. It's a great place. I doubt very much if all 260 million Americans want a police state. The current, very paranoid government seems keen to keep people out, but I've always found Americans themselves to be welcoming and friendly.

Alan

My Grandad always maintained that the altlantic ocean was never really wide enough, I never quite got that one ? I think we shall see though how Democratic and free Britain actually is, when it's cousin and master visits next week, "WATCH THIS SPACE".

Fritz Von They'reallcommiebastardsatheart

Graham Ricketts

Yep!!
It is well known that if the UK hoisted the anchor it would drift across until it bumped up against New York.
It all started with Ronnie saving Maggie from ignimony in the Faulklands (at least that's what they would have you believe). And then of course Billie boy saved us from the N.Irish for the sake of all of the expat Bostonians.
The trouble with George is his history and geography is so lousy that he probably thinks he is cementing relations with Asia.

GEOFFP

Suprisingly enough the Bush clan originates from a small village in Essex ?
Fritz Likes Essexgells

Graham Ricketts

So the thief-in-chief, old daddy's boy and his big money business cronies have added insult to injury.

This on top of the most appalling "Patriot 2" legislation really makes a complete mockery of "the land of the free". Rename it the "land run by the rich, for the rich" and everyone else can take a hike.

A famous quote (can't remember who) once said that whenever a scoundrel (which includes most politicians - remember Maggie?) appeals to your patriotism, run for the hills. How true.

The hypocrisy of the present catastrophe of an adminstration, and the fear of what the hell they are going to try next makes me want to puke.

Thank god for Canada.

Colin Lorenson

Strangely enough durin the cold war, West Berlin was probably the most heavily policed City on earth, ID's and all that, but I've never felt more relaxed and safer in my life, funny that innit ? Do they still have Guy Fawkes bashes down in K-Lumpy ? I remember quite a session last time I was there.


Fritz Rockin For A Free World.

Graham Ricketts

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Strangely enough durin the cold war, West Berlin was probably the most heavily policed City on earth, ID's and all that, but I've never felt more relaxed and safer in my life, funny that innit ?

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I was in Berlin about five years ago. ex West B was very nice, with a very 'relaxed and safe' atmosphere. This was not the case with ex E B, when waiting inside the railway station there was: A group of Neo Nazis, some prostitutes and a collection of drunks. Don't know about the amount of policemen in the respective places, but I got the impression they wasn't much needed in the west part.

Read somewhere that Monaco is the most police heavy place on earth. Never been there, but I guess it's a quite safe place. It's also been said that there is non of the dog turds so popular everywhere in the country surrounding them

Yes, with a policeman dedicated to his work in every street corner, life should be safe.

I don't consider Sweden a police state because there is pariculary many policemen, but because we have a system of compulsory Social Security Number.

JohanR

What's the SP on George Gallows-awaa ( Rebel Ex Labour MP in UK) getting apprehended, arrested or worse, before next week's visit from Cousin Geroge W'ya ?
Fritz The Gambler.

Ps: To compare (Coldwartime) Berlin with Monacco is unfortunately like comparing poor folk in Seattle with poor folk in New Orlean's innit.Cheers anyway fellow European.

Piss² Check out "The Punch" link on my website for some Great Swedish Rockers innit.

Graham Ricketts

The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide.
If you are legit, and are happy for the benefit that this type of security brings, then what's the problem?

Compulsory ID cards are an encroachment on civil liberty. End of story.

I will not be carrying one - partly because I have decided to go naked and will have nowhere to stash it.

Alan

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Compulsory ID cards are an encroachment on civil liberty. End of story

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Alan,
i don't agree.
In my experience the people who don't want to carry these are either full of civil liberties or those who have something to hide.
If you have nothing to hide, and behave legally conforming to the laws of the land, then what have you to lose by carrying such identification, and everything to gain.
In the US if you don't have your driving license and registration on you at the time you get stopped by the police, you get arrested.
Imagine what effect that would have in this country - insurance premiums would go down because it would be easier to detect.
Imagine the police stopping someone at 3.30am in the morning acting sus and then not being able to ascertain who they are...
How frustrating that must be. Whereas if they got stopped and they had no ID then tough. I have nothing to hide getting stopped at that time because I've done nothing wrong...

Andy

I've got plenty to hide. But even if I didn't, I don't need to carry round a government-issued card to say I'm being a good wee boy.

The police already have all the powers they need, and abuse too many of them for me to want to give them any more. If you don't think that's true, ask a black guy.

Anyway, why should the coppers stop you at 3:30 a.m. if you're doing nothing wrong? F*** 'em.

Alan

Alan

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I will not be carrying one - partly because I have decided to go naked and will have nowhere to stash it

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Oh yes you do.

Clue : the sun doesn't shine there.

You could always get yourself a little 'man-bag' to carry your ID card in

ag

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posted Thu 13 November 03 15:36
The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide.

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The people who don't want [insert measure that will erode their civil liberties] have something to hide. This is the logic of the authoritarian.

We all have something to hide, even those of us with clear consciences.

Moreover, as governments become more authoritarian they become less accountable because anyone who may bring them to task can be victimised more easily. If heavily empowered law enforcement agencies don't find any dirt on a given target they can just fabricate it.

I don't like the idea of being randomly stopped by police officers as I go about my daily law-abiding business. It wouldn't be so bad for me - a white, middle class person, but if you're North African, Asian or Black in, say, Paris, you can expect to be stopped by the police as many as seven times a day.

"I'm sorry officer, this is the seventh time to day and I'm running late so kindly fuck off!"

I can see how that would end up.

The most authoritarian state I've ever visited is Uzbekistan. There they have road blocks every few miles with police officers asking for ID at every one. Their citizens also have to apply for exit visas months in advance in order to be allowed to leave the country. Corruption and bribery of enforcement officers is rife.

I believe in minimal government - below which we'd have anarchy and crime on the streets and everyone would live in fear of criminals; above which, in varying degrees we live in fear of the same by state-sponsored criminals.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 14 November 2003 at 05:10.]

Ref ID cards - " The only people who don't want ID cards are those with something to hide".

This is bullshit - Similar arguement to that elucidated by "the leader of the free world" - insert appropriate comment - Bush, after 9/11.

"If you aren't with us you are against us"

This Big Brother logic of both these statements is really scary (and of course completely wrong).

You may have nothing to hide ref ID cards - but complacently agreeing to having your whole life monitored, data logged, your e-mails monitored, your spending patterns reviewed etc. is short sighted and asking for trouble.

Repressive powers in the US and UK are using 911 to accord themselves powers that go way beyond what is necessary. This is a naked power grab - nothing more and nothing less - as far as the US is concerned elections are coming up next year. It is in the present administrations interest to promote the seige mentality as no sitting President has ever lost an election in time of "war". Can you think if any other reason why he would be re-elected for gods sake.

Colin Lorenson

Steven Toy wrote:

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I believe in minimal government - below which we'd have anarchy and crime on the streets and everyone would live in fear of criminals; above which, in varying degrees we live in fear of the same by state-sponsored criminals.

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Agree a 100 percent to this.

A little clearafication. It's the social Security Number that is compulsory in Sweden, so far one doesn't have to carry an ID.

Having people tagged and controlled is excellent when, as an example, once own beloved country is occupied by a foreign regime and they want to track down the people that are most against being occupied. Excellent for that foreign regime, that is. I have understood that this is what happened in a couple of countries being occupied by the Nazis during the WWII. And, of course, in that case not only patriotic citizens...

JohanR