WARNING! If you have a short fuse and/or had a liquid lunch, I shouldn't bother reading any further.

I don't know if any of you recall the brutal, homophobic murder of Matthew Sheppard, 21, from Wyoming, USA, five years ago (it was publicized worldwide and the 'story' has been adapted in to two films). Or whether or not you have heard of Fred Phelps. Google him and you'll find out what kind of a 'person' he is. Anyway, read on:

Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church is proposing an Anti-Matthew Shepard memorial in Casper City Park as a solemn Memorial that God Hates Fags & Fag Enablers. A picture of the proposed memorial is here

If you want to know more about God's humble servant,look here
I should have a bucket handy.
If you wish to express an opinion, see this

Robin

[This message was edited by Emeritus on SATURDAY 15 November 2003 at 16:38.]

It's disgusting. Remember though, there's a lot of America and there are a lot of Americans in there. So there's bound to be a couple of crazy bigots surfacing every once in while.

In Europe (Yurp according to Dubya) we have quite a tradition of massive internecine wars (Sebrenica anyone?) so we're not exactly squeaky clean either.

Herman

But Herm, I have spoke to quite a number of americans.
One runs our company, our company is not small.

The americans I have spoke to think that americans, (espcially those from the south) are fucking nutty.

Job done.

I was born in Charleston, West Virginia. I have also lived in Tennessee for a good long time. I am afraid to travel in West Virginia as their eyes seem too close together, and the way they look at you is one of complete paranoia and distrust. Most my relatives on my dad's side live in eastern Kentucky which is coal mining and moonshine territory. If I was not related, I would not travel there. The lack of any world view or any ideas of tolerance are years away. Not to say they aren't nice, you just have to be related to them it seems. Garyi, yes, the majortiy of what I would call 'the normal' people in the south are very small minded. Their ideas of religion are still rooted in the medieval pre-occupation of persecution. I moved to the west coast many years ago to get away from this intolerant lot.

Let me just say I never went to the South in the years I lived in the US for pretty much those reasons. Missouri was as close as I got. I have yet to hear an intelligent person speak with Southern drawl. When Clinton started talking folksy, you knew he was going to execute another black jailbird for electoral reasons.

However, Wyoming is not the South. I actually spent a fair amount of time in Laramie, WY, which is where this kid went to college. There's creeps everywhere, but that doesn't make everybody a creep.

Herman

Next time I hear someone go on about the threat of Islma fundamentalism, I'll tell 'em about these sites.

Europe has had an Age of Enlightenment, doing away with may of the worst aberrations if Christianity (witch burnings, anyone?). It seems the Age of Enlightenment has yet to reach the U.S.

Markus,

You let Europe off the hook too easily. Consider the Balkans, and Europe's extreme delay in taking any action. Consider Ireland. Consider Ruanda. Consider the racial politics in England and France. Consider synagogue burning, bombing, and vandalization over the past 20 years. Consider support for Muslim NGOs that exist to further hatred of Jews. Consider Europe's piggybacking on the Brits in forcing drugs and missionaries on China. Considerr skinheads and violence against foreigners in Germany.

I hold no brief for homophobes. I hold no brief for ANYONE who believes it is morally correct to kill other human beings because of their beliefs. But Europe (I tend to include England with Europe) held the proponderance of power in the world from, say, 1800-1940, and they were not a good model...and they have not cleaned up their act yet.

I am disgusted with US society's attitudes and fascination with homosexuality. Homosexuals per se engender, if you will, neither past nor present nor future threats to society. On the contrary, accepting homosexuality and the diversity they personify probably offers benefits to society.

But fundamentalism is a threat everywhere.

Regards.

Phil

US society's fascination with any variety of sexuality, gay or not, blows my mind. That we have states and cities where oral sex, anal sex, and hand jobs are illegal is pure Quaker madness.

Check this out.

And then there's all the ridiculous censoring in music, TV, and film.



Serenity NOW!!!

Look. Just because there are fanatics and nutters around shouldn't wind us up like this. There are similar "churches" over here in the UK, which are based on basic fascist ideals. Don't worry about it.
To invoke a reaction from you is exactly what the Devil is trying to do, and he is succeeding- Yes Succeeding...And I’m telling you Loud And Clear – Loud And Clear that Jesus....Jesus Wants you to repent and lay down this hate because it is the WORK OF THE DEVIL.. AND THE DEVIL WILL ENTER YOUR SOUL AND DESTROY HUMANITY IF YOU LET IT. YOU HAVE TO SET THIS HATE ASIDE AND LOVE YOUR FELLOW MAN EVEN IF THEY OPPOSE YOU AND STRIKE YOU DOWN.
SAY WITH ME…JESUS..JESUS..COME INTO ME LORD... TOUCH THE SCREEN…TOUCH THE SCREEN,….
Eh..sorry about that…better go and have a lie down….

A quick clarification:
My original post was in no way intended to be 'anti American'. I hope no-one took it as such. Sorry if anyone did.

Robin

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

These sorts of attitudes by and large come from people who live in the south (though, obviously there are those who hold them in the north as well) but remember the US is 250 million people. We have our share of nutjobs, but I wonder if militant anti-homosexuality - even in the south where if it exists at all exists most prominantly - in the US is any more malignant than antisemitism in Europe.

Let's remember that the US has a long and shameful history of church burning, lynching and other sorts of "militant" malignancies (again, mostly eminating from the south) but by and large these sorts of things are driven underground - I'm not sure the US has seen a church burning in 10 or 15 years. It's been something like 5 years (correct me if I am wrong) since we have had a planned parenthood bombing and/or whatnot.

On the other hand, temple and jewish school burnings and destructions appear to be on the rise in Europe. Just today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11981,1086699,00.html

This is just one in a long line of these sorts of things of late (I'm not counting the recent events in Turkey).

As far as the south is concerned, what many of you might consider the south, you probably consider so because of its geographic location. But, in the US, the "South" does NOT include most of Florida and Texas (there may be some disagreement about Texas). And some of the most backward states in the Union (Arkansas, Tenn., West Virginia) are hardly south at all when compared to Mississippi and Georgia.

And let us also not forget that certain pockets of the southern US time has simply passed by. There are counties in Mississippi and Louisianna that are hardly distinguishable from many third world coutries.

Anyway, I forgot where I was going with this.

judd

quote:

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I have yet to hear an intelligent person speak with Southern drawl.

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Certainly I'm an exception Herm....

regards,

dave


Grammatically illiterate but has a family tree that forks

Well of course you are. As I said I didn't try very hard to locate the smart southerners, not ever going there.

And as my first post said, I don't think Yurp is perfect either.

Herman

quote:

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Originally posted by Phil Barry:
But fundamentalism is a threat everywhere.

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I'm fundamentally nice. Do you feel threatened

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

Gentleman,
I've had the luxury this moaning of going through all of your comments
fairly thoroughly, as well as looking at the links provided (interesting stuff).
God, here we go again I hear some of you groan, Fritz with another one of his
diatribes, but I'll write it all the same, if I may ? Wether it be British
Victorian or Third Reich Nazi, the hypocrasy towards Gayness is the same from
wherever it comes, or so it seems to me ?
Having spent my early childhood in
East London, I unfortunately witnessed many racist incidents, wether they be
anti semetic (Semites are not only Jews; remember)or general ignorance. The
british national front (neo nazi organisation) & the british movement fronted by
skinheads (where they were founded- basically associated with fooltball clubs
and violence)of a so-called nationalistic nature upon kkk lines. I've actually
seen a black skinhead with a white swastika tattooed on his forehead, you can't
really argue with the significance of him being an assett to their cause can
you ? Stranger things than that exist amongst the madness of it all, a mr martin
webster who originally fronted the aforementioned nf, was himself Gay, though
never openly, and advocated himself publically; with very anti-Gay rhetoric,
somewhat
reminiscent of Goebbles, etc, etc, lovely uniforms dear, what !!! Berlin as you
may know has always been famous for its tolerance since the twenties, being a
global Gay scene of great brilliance, style, and contributor to Europe's quality
of life².
We presently have an elected politically powerfull Gay mayor, who
regularly now is escorted at official evening functions by his partner with
absolutely no comment what'sover, it's just not an issue, I believe Paris has a
similar situation ? Sex, public nudity, etc, etc, frightens people of certain
backgrounds (various cultures & religions)and is from childhood onwards drummed
into many young heads as being somehow dirty etc, etc, subsequently resulting in
so many fucked up heads, either here in Europe and the States. The key words,
IGNORANCE * FEAR * HYPOCRACY *
Some older Brits will recall the fabulous Tom
Robinson & Band and his famous "Sing, if you're glad to be Gay" which was big in
the UK charts (I can't honestly remember if the BBC banned it or not ?)but I
think it probably stopped quite a few confused kids committing suicide over the
years, because unlike the real mainstream Gay Music Genius's like Freddie, Elton
John, Goerge Michael, etc, etc, they tend to play it down without actually
denouncing it (if you get my drift ?) cos it's bad for mainstream business innit
!!! Tom's stuff was long before the Aids paranoia became a weapon for the right.
I watched the Louisina Governorial election ru-ups with interest. A first Asian
candidate, though Republican, and therefore not getting any of the black vote,
and in contrast a white elderly Democrat lady who does, Politics sure is a game
and a half isn't it ?
I was appalled to recently learn of the many long term
prisoners (mainly black, suprise, suprise)who've been released due to new DNA
evidence proving their innocence, and the way they've been treated upon being
put back onto the streets (literally). One can reckon with many on roughly $100
per day inside as compensation from the state (If at all depending on the
State), and an ex con, is an ex con, is
an ex con (wherever you may be).
Time for some coffee I reckon and let you guys
get back to work ? As an afterthought, I remember my Mum once asking my Father
at the dinner table the whole family was eating (7 of us)why he (as a cop)had
to protect afore-mentioned mr webster and his cronies, walking through a
Pakistani/ Jewish street called Brick Lane in London many years hence, to which
he replied, that as nmuch as he despised the guy too, his democratic rights to
peacfully protest must be upheld, the local residents to who'm the taunts and
jibes were directed simply ignored the whole affair, and subsequently quashed
any psychological advantage the organisers may have believed they have had ? I
rest my case.
Cheers, Fritz Von Whatalotofwaffel²

P.s: Check out "The Philly Gay News" link at base of page 1 on my dreaded site,
it's excellent journalism by the way ? and what do I know ?

Piss² Outing suspect Politicians to-be for possible future use of intolerance
as a basic weapon of fear (which is very potent to the uneducated), and to
finally finish (thank Christ they yawn)with the famous trueism from the
one and only Mr Wilde himself in that "LIfe's too short to drink bad wine"
which can be construed in any which way you choose, innit !!!

Graham Ricketts

As Ghandi used to say "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next "

Fritz Van Del

Graham Ricketts

What a stunning thread. Ignorance is clearly not exclusive to the Westboro Baptist Church.

Jay (southern raised and educated)

Jay,

quote:

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What a stunning thread. Ignorance is clearly not exclusive to the Westboro Baptist Church.

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Indeed.



Herm,

quote:

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As I said I didn't try very hard to locate the smart southerners, not ever going there.

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I've met more than a few. Some Southerners are even numbered among the world's greatest living scientists.

Joe