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The root of Al Qaeda is in Islam & it is a form of religious extremism.

I would profoundly disagree, Al Qaeda is a political movement, which just so happens to use Islamic language when it suits it. It is really a reaction to poverty, the lack of power and influence Middle Eastern states have, and the continued influence and interference of the former imperial powers. Islam just happens to be a useful banner as the states in the Middle East have little else in common.

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religious extremism & all the dreadful acts conducted in the name of /under the shield of religions

Well then I think to be perfectly honest we have been getting too tied up with specifics. I would absolutely agree with you. I am by no means defending those who take such ridiculous positions, or indeed the inaction (to date) of The Holy See, and I sincerely hope something will be done about it.

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For example the CC is vastly wealthy, so why not use that wealth to alleviate poverty & hunger?

I would contend that it does, it is a frequent criticism that the Church has too much money, but the vast majority of the wealth of the Church is property, and the vast majority of that property is in use, they are not merely hording it. The Church is the largest not-for-profit organization in the world. Because of the complexity of the various agencies within the Church it is hard to come up with an accurate total for the amount of Aid given out by the Church each year, it certainly runs into billions. Also the Church has been very effective at recruiting people to carry out Aid work in the 3rd world. Without the buildings, infrastructure and administration the wealth of the Church supports this simply couldn't happen. A Parish Priest in Britain gets a salary of less than £4k a year, hardly a bunch of men in dog-collars rolling in a pile of gold.

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I'm an athiest, it does not matter if you can show me that my position is wrong. I'm not going to believe you! Sound familiar ?

Well it was only a certain amount of time until the religion of Atheism got it's own fundamentalists!

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Al Qaeda is a political movement, which just so happens to use Islamic language when it suits it.

The line between politics, state & religion blur in almost all societies. Similarly almost all religions are political in that they are politically active & have political allegiances & goals.
Al Qaeda is the name given to an international alliance of militant Sunni Islamist terrorist organisations established in 1988 by Osama bin Laden. It is a religious organisation with a political agenda. I think we agree terrorism is caused by injustice, whether real or perceived.

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Well then I think to be perfectly honest we have been getting too tied up with specifics.

I think the specifics are very important, & especially so to the victims.
As you are affiliated to the organisation which is the root of the problem I sincerely hope you will do more than hope The Holy See will do something about it.

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I would contend that it does, it is a frequent criticism that the Church has too much money, but the vast majority of the wealth of the Church is property, and the vast majority of that property is in use, they are not merely hording it. The Church is the largest not-for-profit organisation in the world. A Parish Priest in Britain gets a salary of less than £4k a year, hardly a bunch of men in dog-collars rolling in a pile of gold.

I don't know what too much money means, but the wealth is indeed vast so sell the property! I'm not claiming the various Christian Churches do no good work,
just pointing out the hypocrisy & damage.

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... it is hard to come up with an accurate total for the amount of Aid given out by the Church each year, it certainly runs into billions.

Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

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Also the Church has been very effective at recruiting people to carry out Aid work in the 3rd world.

Recruit or indoctrinate?
I basically believe we should all be tolerant & respectful of one another,
but when religion goes bad it has to be challenged.

Dear All,

If Jesus returned to Earth i believe that he would STILL BE A JEW.

regards David

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The line between politics, state & religion blur in almost all societies.

Absolutely, but in the case of Al Qaeda where a lot of their behaviour is at odds with the teachings of The Holy Qur'an I think it is very misleading to say Islam is the root; which was the wording you used.

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As you are affiliated to the organisation which is the root of the problem I sincerely hope you will do more than hope The Holy See will do something about it.

I don't know exactly what you expect me to do. As I pointed out earlier I am far from being a "good Catholic" indeed the last time I was in a Church was at a funeral two months ago. I certainly do not have any influence over The Holy See!

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but the wealth is indeed vast so sell the property!

Sell the Churches that people attend, and often form the hub of the community? Not to mention that it is usually the local Catholic community who raised the money to construct and maintain the Churches in the first place. Also who would want to buy Churches?

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Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

I don't know to be perfectly honest, but it is certainly a very high percentage of the turnover. My mother is the treasurer of our parish, and around 80% of the parish's fund raising goes directly to charities. Admittedly this is a reasonably wealthy parish (or rather a parish with quite a high proportion of wealthy parishioners), so the proportion may be somewhat higher than you might find elsewhere.

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Recruit or indoctrinate?

I suppose you could call it whatever you like. The fact remains that volunteers working with agencies like CAFOD are in deprived areas digging wells and building schools, I don't see how that is a bad thing.

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If Jesus returned to Earth i believe that he would STILL BE A JEW.

Noted David, I suppose he would, under Jewish law he can't cease to be one!

Regards,


Dom

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Absolutely, but in the case of Al Qaeda where a lot of their behavior is at odds with the teachings of The Holy Qur'an I think it is very misleading to say Islam is the root; which was the wording you used.

Al Qaeda is an Islamic religious group. Of course their behavior is at odds with the teachings of mainstream Islam.
Equally the actions of the Catholic Church members involved in the AIDS/Condoms misinformation conspiracy, & those involved in the sexual abuse scandal & cover up are at odds with the teachings of Christ. But these things happened & the root of these problems is religious extremism, so ultimately it is a problem bourne of religion IMO.

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I don't know exactly what you expect me to do.

I think that is something for your conscience to work out.

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Sell the Churches that people attend, and often form the hub of the community? Not to mention that it is usually the local Catholic community who raised the money to construct and maintain the Churches in the first place. Also who would want to buy Churches?

Come on Dom; the CC owns more than a few churches!
Churches get snapped up very quickly by property developers in my local property market.

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I don't know to be perfectly honest, but it is certainly a very high percentage of the turnover. My mother is the treasurer of our parish, and around 80% of the parish's fund raising goes directly to charities. Admittedly this is a reasonably wealthy parish (or rather a parish with quite a high proportion of wealthy parishioners), so the proportion may be somewhat higher than you might find elsewhere. [QUOTE] Which is perhaps 1% of the total wealth of the CC.

How many billions are there in the Vatican back A/Cs?
The CC in America were able to pay out $615 million dollars last year to victims of their pedophile priests.

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Recruit or indoctrinate?

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I suppose you could call it whatever you like.

I'll call it self perpetuating brainwashing then!

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Originally posted by 555:
...the actions of the Catholic Church members involved in the AIDS/Condoms misinformation conspiracy ... are at odds with the teachings of Christ.

That very bold bit of polemic needs a bit of unpacking, I'd say.

I am always fascinated by the depth and sophistication of the theological understanding of Christian teaching exhibited by those seeking to put the boot into it, rarely from an unprejudiced standpoint!

The panacea of Condoms is no more the ultimate logical solution to the spread of AIDS and other awful (anti)social diseases than is limiting the number of children to Developing Nations families the ultimate logical solution to world population growth.

Ultimately, they are matters of human beahviour ('ours' as well as 'theirs') and world economics ('our' effect on 'theirs').

The fact is that Condoms are of little interest to those - both in the Developed and Developing Nations - who choose to behave, personally, in a grossly irresponsible, promiscuous and sometimes/frequently abusive way. Where Condoms are readily available, such as in our own 'sophisticated' Land, the rate of Condom use by the so-called 'high risk' groups is plummeting, with a proportionate rise in infections and young teenage pregnancy.

And as for the world population explosion, perhaps if the Developed Nations cut a proper and fair deal for the Developing Nations there wouldn't be the need for them to have 15 children per couple in case 14 of them die.

Ultimately, these are questions of personal and social responsibility, not saying it is alright to behave irresponsibly because we've got a bit of magic rubber to patch it up (oops I forgot).

Unpack to your hearts content JWM!

It is a fact that use of a condom reduces the transmission of STDs including HIV.
Those members of the CC in Africa that conspired to misinform people of the facts regarding condoms resulted in many people contracting HIV. Apart from the lies I would think that the resulting death & suffering goes against the teachings of Christian Churches inc' the CC.

I agree there are issues of personal and social responsibility.
It may be a fact that condoms are of little interest to those who choose to behave irresponsibly, but that begins with education, which is the opposite of the CCs actions in Africa.

I believe the increases in STDs in the UK correlates with a failure in both parental & institutional education. The fact is people are going to have sex (it is nature!), so is it not best to be pragmatic & inform them of the facts?

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But these things happened & the root of these problems is religious extremism, so ultimately it is a problem bourne of religion IMO.

555 - this is the non-sequitur at the root of your position. The problem is extremism, not religion per se.

What do you believe in? The free market? Science? Think about when these ideas have been taken to extremes (e.g. Bhopal, The Tuskegee Experiments), and ask yourself whether you would to tar all practitioners with the same brush. Seen in this light, Dom's position appears entirely reasonable to me.

EDIT: Just spotted your post about music and wine - would you judge all drinkers by the actions of the few who become violent under the influence - ultimately, it is a problem caused by drink, after all.

Regards
Nigel

The issues I have been commenting on do follow from both religion & religious extremism.
For example The Catholic Church sex abuse scandal & cover up in the USA isn't related to extremism, religious or otherwise is it Nigel?

I believe in things like tolerance, love, peace, family, friendship;
things which don't get taken to damaging extremes.
I hadn't consciously thought about it before,
but I guess that's the reason I believe in those things; what do you believe in Nigel?

I think Doms position has become more reasonable, but his early posts in this thread suggested he was unaware of the activities of the Catholic Church & their consequences.

I would challenge someone claiming 'all forms of drink are fine."
Equally I challenge the various religions due to the problems & suffering caused by them.

Are violent drunks a problem caused by drink, lack of education or both?
FYI I think it's both, but education is probably more significant.

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The Catholic Church sex abuse scandal & cover up in the USA isn't related to extremism, religious or otherwise is it Nigel?

Nor is it in any way related to the Catholic faith, any more than propagating nonsense without any scientific or theological basis is. My issue is with the way you fail to make any separation between the religion and the activities of certain individuals within that religion.

I think Nigel has a very valid point; should I consider that as Hitler was a vegetarian then vegetarianism was responsible for the Holocaust? Or that the activities of some Rangers fans in Manchester yesterday has something to do with them being Scottish?

555, I don't really have an axe to grind, but my observation, based on the exchanges between you and Dom on this thread, is that you come across as the more dogmatic and inflexible participant. No offence (seriously). EDIT: maybe there has been a rapprochement, of late!

For the record, I am not a Catholic, and condemn the practices you highlight. I might own up to being a Buddhist, if pressed, but the truth is I don't find such labels terribly helpful.

By the by, Buddhism is often regarded as the cuddliest of religions (even Dawkins grants it an early pardon in "The God Delusion") yet the sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway were executed by a group of extreme, fundamentalist Buddhists. Again, I see this as caused by extremism, not Buddhism, per se.

I think that almost any idea can be twisted into an idol, to which we are prepared to sacrifice everything that makes us human. The only possible exception - which you mention - is tolerance, but I would prefer to substitute something more active such as the Buddhist notion of "compassion", or Christianity's "agape". The other ideas you mention - love, family, friendship, I'm not so sure about - romantic love gets twisted into all kinds of odd shapes, no?

On that bombshell, I send both you and Dom my regards!

Nigel

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Nor is it in any way related to the Catholic faith ... My issue is with the way you fail to make any separation between the religion and the activities of certain individuals within that religion. I think Nigel has a very valid point; should I consider that as Hitler was a vegetarian then vegetarianism was responsible for the Holocaust? Or that the activities of some Rangers fans in Manchester yesterday has something to do with them being Scottish?

Dom

I don't think I have suggested the child abuse scandal or cover-up is related to the Catholic faith per se, but that it came from within the organisation. The fact that there was large-scale child abuse occurring in the CC, & then it was covered-up by senior figures suggests to me there is a systematic problem.

However the AIDS/Condom mis-information conspiracy in Africa is different;
it occured as part of the CC faith,
albeit an extemist form.

I accept there is separation, but equally you need to see the connections.
We are not talking about a small number of individuals re: either subjects.
If Hitler did what he did in the name of vegetarianism then yes, but he didn't.
Suggesting fatuous correlations doesn't change anything.

Nigel
I can't really disagree with anything you say!