Going Active - or - New Speakers?

While starting to plot my next move I find myself at a bit of a crossroad. I seem to be confronted with one of the following alternatives - keeping my Allaes and going active OR purchasing a new pair of speakers and remaining passive.

My existing system is listed in my profile and is quite maxed out. To go active with another 300 amplifier is a very expensive undertaking - $16.5K (300/SNAXO/HiCap). Purchasing new speakers would cost considerably less (including selling the Allaes).

I guess the question comes down to which would provide the better result considering the economic consequences and whether speakers such as the Allaes merit the considerable expenditure required to take them active.

Finally - being located in the States it is EXTREMELY difficult to home audition speakers AND the selection and choice for some of the popular alternatives mentioned on this forum simply do not exist. My local dealer, until recently, only carried Naim and Linn Speakers (with access to ATC). Recently during the last two months he has brought in Dynaudio and Sonus Faber.

Neat speakers are not distributed in the US at present (the factory said they would supply direct - but that would mean buying on the blind and sans dealer support) - Kudos are sold by only one dealer in the entire USA - Art Audio I believe has just started with one dealer. The recent thread on the Zu line has peaked my interest - and they sell direct in the US and offer home demos and a return policy. I think that I am ruling out SL2's for various reasons even though I have not had a chance to listen to them.

My room is not that large (17' X 12' with high ceilings) and speakers must remain where they are presently located - the listening chair is about 9-10' away. Here is a "bad" picture





Regards
Gregg

PS - Oh - music is primarily vintage Southern Soul/RnB late 60's early 70's - Stax/Muscle Shoals etc - although there is the requisite eclectic mix of RnR/Blues/Reggae etc.

having gone from passive to active back to passive, here are some thoughts, though i can't answer your question directly, because there are so many variables at play.

i don't think active speakers are the holy grail of audio. with naim speakers, obviously, active is better than passive, given the same electronics. one downside of going active is that, essentially, you're investing more money in the speakers you already have, so even though going active may be a nice improvement, if your aren't completely satisfied with the speakers, you'll take a fairly big financial hit if you decide to move on to a non-naim speaker. when it comes to upgrading amps, the cost doubles.

on the other hand, some people really dig what active systems do, and i can certainly understand this. in your shoes, it might be easier to demo another amp and xover than to get an out of area dealer to lend you speakers to audition. i wouldn't give up on the possibility of a non-local dealer shipping you speakers to demo. perhaps you could convince the kudos dealer to vacation in NY, and swing with some speakers.

i'm not familiar with the allaes, i had active sbl's, but a bake-off between active allaes with 300's versus a passive system with something like the neats, kudos or equivalently priced speakers would be very interesting.

fwiw, i much prefer passive mf7's to active sbl's, but others may not.

Gregg,

I think you're on the wrong track. You need a Fraim...oh, ok, two Fraims. Your system is currently sounding as good as you've ever heard I'm sure, but the fact is that the Quadraspire racks are leaving a lot to be desired in all possible terms, such as pace, rhythm, timing, liveliness, dynamics, contrast, bass definition...everything. Quadraspire are very good racks for what they are, but you've got seriously good kit which you're not using to anything like its fullest capacity at the moment. The Fraim will make a significant improvement to your music, and I think you just about have the space for it.

If the Fraim is not an option, going active is a seriously interesting idea. The newish 242 crossover is substantially better than the older 2-4. Going active means staying in with the Naim sound. Changing speakers will require significant outlay, either for SL2s or something else. SL2s are a different animal to Allaes, far more incisive, wildly better in scale, contrast etc, but still retaining the Naim character with that pacey, rhythmic drive they're so famous for. If you change to things like Sonus Faber (which have improved a great deal over the years), you're moving away from the ideal Naim idiom to a different take on the subject, and only you can determine whether this is where you want to go...

In my imagination, I can just hear your kit driving a pair of Zu Druids or better still, Zu Definitions. Wonderful!
Even better, you should be able to audition them reasonably easily as they are of US manufacture.
Ken

Hi Gregg,

I can only concur with KenM, I have heard the Druids and the Definitions with the same electronics as you.
The Druids were mind-blowing, absolutely awesome, you will definately need more storage space, you will be buying CD's/Vinyl like it is going out of fashion.

With the Definitions - just another league again, Active doesn't come close. There is always the Zu Presence. I am sure that Sean at Zu would love to bring along a pair of either speaker, as they would love to hear their speakers with Naim Electronics.

Good luck

James

Hi Frank

Fraim - hmmm...with my setup that is easily $10K for racks! I just don't see it happening. I will admit that I do like the look of Hutter or Isoblue a bit better - but will they give significant enough improvement over the Quadraspire? I believe that Naim used one of the two for their show demos pre Fraim and that today it is referred to as the poor mans Fraim? Which one? As for SL2's - well I have read enough polarizing comments about them on this forum - and someone whose opinion I value (who travels in high circles ) has had the courage to tell me he does not care for them. I would also have the nagging question about taking them active = $$$$$

As for Zu - yes it might be worth a call as I believe that they will ship a pair out to anyone in the States for a home demo. I would most likely skip over the Druids and try the new Presence model (baby definitions). I do wonder a bit about the built in amplification for the bass drivers - compatible with Naims amplification?

Neat seem to be universally well regarded on this forum however it would be a total crapshoot purchasing on the blind.

Gregg

Gregg

I used to have your very system. The two things you 'need' to get the best from it are some decent speakers (I had SL2s and just because someone has told you they don't care for them means not a jot - they are superb) and a decent stand. The QS is seriously holding back what you have. If Fraim is too much, go for the Isoblue, which is the most Fraim-like and only 1/4 of the price. You need to think of the stand as part of the system, rather than just something to stick it on.

Nigel

Hi Gregg,

The built in amps for the subs on the Presence and in my experience on the Definitions do not have any compatibility issues with Naim amps driving the main full range driver(s) super tweeter.

The Druids and Definitions sound absolutely awesome and are an excellent pairing with Naim Electronics.
Image an active Naim system but at least twice as much in improvement in all aspects of the music with the Definitions, that is how good they are.

In a recent music weekend a room with Druids on the end of a CDX2/282/200 was much more enjoyable and jaw-dropping than a pair of Allaes on the end of a CDS3/555/252/250.2.
If you were choosing you would go for the former, and save an absolute bundle of cash.

All the best

James

Hi Gregg,

When I was investigating the difference between the 250-2, 300 and 500, the front end was a 555/552 and the speakers Allaes.

The Allaes were capable of showing the difference between the amps, but regardless of which amp was being used, they were limiting the performance of the overall system.

On the basis of this experience I would suggest that going active with Allaes in not good use of your upgrade funds, whereas a better pair of speakers with your current electronics would reap great rewards.

Clearly the challenge you face is in deciding on which speakers.

Gregg, I can see you’re getting itchy feet with speakers. If you like what Naim speakers do I’d be VERY wary of straying from the path, nothing else is likely to satisfy.

My system is identical to yours for sources and preamp (aint that Superline somethin!), and I had a 300 for a year or so before going active with 250.2s and SBLs.

I confess to not being a fan of Allaes, but I’ve heard them active and they were massively improved in that configuration, so no doubt in my mind about the potential for improvement. So far as my own system goes, active is so good I’m still kicking myself it for not doing it years ago.

Putting myself in your position, and looking at that fantastic music collection, I’d punch out a few more pairs of shoes, take a deep breath and buy some Fraim first. I know it’s ludicrously expensive, but it provides the foundation for everything else, the benefits are real, especially with a top system like yours, and you only have to do it once. Just bite the bullet and go for it.

Then I’d think about active. If you like the Allaes they’re the last thing I’d change.

SBLs if you can.

Just a thought here, as I see this hasn't been mentioned.... For less than the cost of going active with another 300 in your setup, you could go to s/h DBL's. Your 300 would drive them fine passively, and know they would take your reproduction very much into another league as compared to going active with what you have.

DBLs are a thought, but being approx 30cms higher and 40 cms wider they would have quite a visual impact. More importantly, they need to sit on a solid wall. In Gregg's case they would be infront of his storage system and the windows and this may lead to problems. It is a nice thought, but given his room, he is probably better off choosing free space speakers.

DBL's - wow - even though I have never seen them in the flesh I always envisioned them as rather massive beasts. I question whether they are not way too big for my room - right now there is only about 5'4" in between the Allaes - it seems that the DBL's would be standing right next to each other at their respective size

I almost consider the record storage unit to approximate a solid wall so any new speaker would almost need to work in a similar fashion as Naim speakers - up against a "wall" (in this case - of records!).

Gregg

I would also vote going the DBL route...passively driven DBLs are way greater in scale and dynamic abilities than small speakers driven actively. I probably would choose passive DBLs driven passively by a 300 over any other active naim speakers driven by 500s. And to truly get into the active camp, you are talking about a Supercap-powered Snaxo which as already has been pointed out will drive your acquisition costs to roughly passive DBL levels.

Dibbles are utterly magical. You dont need huge space around them either -- my room is no bigger than yours. But dibbles only really sing when driven actively.

Definitely add another vote for Fraim!

I would agree here that DBLs do not need huge space around them to be stellar performers. I do recall there were numerous posts previously by users in rooms that were quite small, and all parties were entirely satisfied. From the location of the speakers in your picture, the DBLs would definitely not be standing 'right next' to each other.

Anyway, that really is part of the magic of the DBLs, which is that its obvious scale is ever present, even at low and moderate spl's.

As for the idea that they really only sing when driven actively, I used to believe this as well, indeed the idea sent me off to slowly and patiently reaching the 500 x 3 state, with 552, so as to assess the snaxo362 active idea.

However, an amazing thing happened on the way to the forum (no pun intended!). I discovered that there were things that could be done to the passive crossovers that changed my opinion radically. Just in case this comment veers in the direction of unacceptable board talk, i would suggest you might PM me, Glevethan. There are issues here also in the otherwise oft-stated need for the DBL to be placed tight up to the back wall. Cheers!

Hello Gregg,

I concur with hungryhalibut, SL2's are awesome when used in active mode.

Reality check, going active costs, if it is to be done correctly. For example, the SNAXO sounds so much better when powered by a Supercap.

Why not try secondhand?

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
DBL's - wow - even though I have never seen them in the flesh

Gregg:

That can be arranged (see my profile). You can get my contact info from David.

I heartily recommend them.

Jay

Jay
Thanks for the offer. Can you send me your tel.? Email address is greggatlevethandotcom

Regards
Gregg