I'm toying with the idea of setting up a sound surround system on the cheap to see how it is. At the momement, I'm not too sure on the best way to go as there appear to be so many. In common with most of the forum I've already got a reasonable hifi system and as the TV is already between the two speakers then this would appear to take care of the front left and right speakers. The amp/processor can be taken care of at one of the hifi warehouse retails and could be one of the Yamaha AX-models (250->450). Easy so far but the problems start to set in with the centre and the rear. There's no real alternative but to rest the centre on the stand just in front of the Telly as at this early stage I don't really want to be setting up shelves, buying new stands etc. So this dictates that it has to be reasonably small and narrow (and not too ugly). On to the rears, due to the open plan room the rears are going to be standing in free space which rules out any 'normal' size speakers for aesthetic reasons. Ideal would be some of the 'designer' style solutions which are tall, narrow and sitting on stands.

My ideas so far include B&W VM1 (as centre and rears), Anthony Gallo (look nice but expensive and most probably not the best sound), Kef Eggs 2005 (bit pricy and I'm also paying for 2 fronts which I don't really need and the subwoofer). Another option, is to use my backup speakers (PMC LB1) as rears for now (not ideal aesthetically and perhaps total overkill for the job). This would mean I'd only need to shell out for the Amp and Centre initially and could add other surrounds at a later stage.

Another questions I have is given the reasonable front-end hifi is it really necessary to get a Sub (i.e. a Sub of the standard that comes with the Kef eggs).

Of course, there is always the question of will I be satisfied with the sound of 'home-cinema on the cheap' and is the best option is to fill my room with AV2, NAPV175, Axent or Axess + surrounds.

So, I'd be interested to hear in anyone elses thoughts, opinions, experiences.

get hold of a yamaha dsp-e800. this does the processing and amplifies the center and rear channels (5.1 only though) the front pair are routed through your hi-fi via a spare input (or the av bypass if you have one).
as for speakers - whatever suitst your decor and wallet however try and match the center to your main speakers as closely as possible, rears don't matter so much for movies.
i use the yamaha, a b&w center to match my mains and soem mission dipole rears. take a look at the richer sounds website for some cheap stuff which will do the job if you are just sticking your toe in the water so to speak.
cheers


julian

Speaking as someone who did home cinema "on the cheap" with KEF eggs and an Arcam Surround sound processor I think it says it all that I have now sold the lot, funded the purchase of an infocus X1 projector and am in stereo cinema
heaven with my main Naim hifi. 52 into active SBLs is stupendously good.

For a while I ran this surround system and it was an interesting experience. A lot of fireworks and effects for sure but as bland as hell to listen to, appauling on music (not down to the KEFs that are great) and almost impossible to get involved with the emotion in the dialogue (a killer for me).

First thing to be thrown out was the amp, replaced by a Nait2 into the sub and a pair of fronts. STUNNED by the difference, into what was just stereo!! In end we decided that Naim were just so good it was either a full blown naim system (no room for it) or sell the lot and buy for the main hifi room.

I will probably try the DVD5 when it comes out as I have no CD player and would like to see what Naim do to the picture. In short then my advice is, if you are used to the fantastic Naim sound dont do the cinema on the cheap for the amps. If you do it will be as dull as washing up water without a hint of lemon.

Very best wishes

Gary

Like Fozz I listen through my Naim set up 52/supercap/250/SBL's, using a Arcam DVD Player.

With the exception of Naim and Meridian I've yet to hear a surround sound system thats impresses me.

given the quality of your system in 2 channel, a connected DVD player will basically cane anything you connect for surround jollies, until you get serious with an AV2 (and the 175 makes sense). I should qualify that with a "I've not heard anything that comes close".

to expand, fun as the swirly surround stuff is, the lack of dynamics, impact, speed, and emotion which invade your system and kill stuff off when you connect typical surround kit makes you wonder why you bothered; going back to 2-channel naim at least brings back the grip, and the loss of the helicopter coming from behind you is quickly forgotten as your senses are re-awoken.

The AV2 is in another league. A fave scene of mine is from Gladiator, when the dude in the forest comes out with the messenger's head and yells at the gathered armies. On a decent system it's a real taunt, and will make the hairs on your neck stand on end... a natural response. On almost all AV kit I've heard, (the Arcam 200 was one notable exception), it's just another sound effect somewhere in the mix. Then that guitar in the effects music - it comes alive and one might think "my god, that's a guitar!" on the AV2 (but then you already heard that on your 2 channel setup).

Ok, my anorak's off. good luck with your quest!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I've just dipped my toe in and found it worth the effort. I do have a separate TV room so there is no chance of running it through the main system.

First off I bought an Acoustic Energy AEGO P5 Mk II. It has to be said that musically it is not close to entry level Naim, let alone my own setup, but it's a darn sight better than the TV's own speakers.

Secondly, the use of PL2 combined with three front channels actually does a pretty amazing job of separating out the sound effects whilst keeping the dialogue centred in the TV. Noises off are just that leaving the centre channel to focus the action in the middle.

So in my experience I love it. Yes it could be better but for watching the news and Red Dwarf it works wonders.

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

You could worse than getting this which I've heard and does sound good

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

2 channel might be fine if your DVD player has a good internal processor, but on my cheapie player, I found that moving from 2 channel PCM to processing the sound in a Yamaha DSPE800 was a huge step foward even with the Yamaha in 2 channel mode (ie only using your existing amplifer).

My surround sound caost a total of about £165quid. s/h DSPE800 5 months old £130, Celestion AVS Speakers, centre (not used, I'm running a phantom centre) + 2 rears, brand new eBay £25, + 20m of mains pendant cable for speaker wiring. A good and cheap place to start.

Mr Perceptive

Interesting responses so far and not what I expected. The general opinion seems to be that given a good hifi system, throwing a cheapy surround amp+speakers on the end of it is not really a great experience.

At the moment, it would appear that the best option would be to trawl eBay/bargain warehouses for a DSP. Connect DSP to HiFi (Mr.Perceptive makes a good point that this will probably do a much better job that my old and inexpensive DVD player. This would make a tangible improvement on it's own and I could also use the 'phantom centre' option to improve on the current L+R setup. I could then use the PMC LB1's to play around with the benefits of rear L+R.

The question is now which DSP/Amp? The DSP-E800 looks ideal (delegates front L+R to the HiFi) and can be picked up cheaply but is now looking rather old. I know it misses out on ProLogic2 but is this really important? Also, it seems as if there are no new similar style processors (i.e. which simply delegate front L+R to HiFi). In these new processor/amps (e.g. Yamaha AX-xxx) am I simply wasting the front-channels by not using them or are they being used to better power the rears.

looking now for any recommendations for cheap but effective DSP/Amps.

quote:

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I'm toying with the idea of setting up a sound surround system on the cheap to see how it is. At the momement, I'm not too sure on the best way to go as there appear to be so many. In common with most of the forum I've already got a reasonable hifi system and as the TV is already between the two speakers then this would appear to take care of the front left and right speakers

---

Like you I wanted to try home cinema, some years ago.

Went out & purchased the AE Aego5 (Mk1!) This showed very well what the potential was. Simply hook everything up, plug the DVD player into the processing unit, turn on the sub and away you go.It could be pointed out that there are more than a few 'complete' sysems in a box like this around, for fairly 'cheap' prices.

The speakers are diminutive, but they do give a reasonable account considering their size, & for the price you pay they give a good representation of what can be achieved with surround.

If you do like what you hear, then it would be worth a trip to your dealers and listen to the AV2 / 175 etc.

Just be prepared for a wallet emptying experience..

Hmmm

Given your calibre of system, I'd also second Ricos thoughts of the AV2/175 - like all gear it has it's limitations but IMHO probably the best bet re all around compromise to fit in with an existing Naim 2 channel setup - aesthetically and performance wise.

The other option is to do as you are thinking, and others have suggested re the addition of an 3 party AV processor, or AV amp, using preouts to power your SL2's through your existing Naim 52/135s, and leaving the processor, or AV receiver/amp to power centre and rears.

IMHO, unless you can afford an Axcess, or Accent, i.e a close as possible match for the SL2's, I'd be inclined to leave well enough alone. Others may differ of course. To be sure, an center channel speaker is important and brings something to the party that is extra re detail clarity etc, but if mismatched tonally, with such a fine speaker as an SL2, I would opinion the tonal mismatch etc will nag and annoy rather than contribute anything meaningful.

I'm in the same position with my SBL's and as yet do not use a center channel speaker with them for the above mentioned reasons, and find phantom mode works exceptionally well. If you were in the sweet spot, you'd believe there was a centre channel speaker in use.

As regards rears, I don't think that the PMC LB1's would be 'wasted' at all. I'm familiar with PMC, but not the model, I assume it's a floorstander?

If so, even better. If you have room to mount bookshelf type speakers up on the walls re rear surrounds, that does give perhaps the optimum placement re a mix of direct and ambient/diffuse sound, however I personally favour full range speakers all round.

Using a processor to cut the bass from one channel and redirecting it to another, always seems to have a tradeoff re a slight diminuition of fine detail etc, which I find annoying to the point of being almost unacceptable. Also, flyovers, gunshots etc sound much more believable when the sound is consistent in tonal balance from front to rear. Small bookshelf speakers for surrounds, with the bass redirected to the sub, leaves one with a whoosh as it were with the sound coming from front to rear, and the bass seemingly stopping somewhere near the front or middle of the room.

Even with the most careful tuning of the sub with small surrounds, full range speakers all round are audibly superior re full range steering of effects, and the decorrelation of the low frequencies being in stereo, rather than in mono as in when redirected to a single sub, gives a much bigger and airier surround field as well.

I agree that the majority of 'cheap' surround setups give one the swirly ambient thing, but lack detail and dynamics.

However this doesn't mean you can't get satisfaction on those parameters without going to the expense of an AV2/175 combo.

Certainly my Sony TADA9000ES unit in combo with my naim pre-power driving my SBL's in phantom mode, whilst it drives my two sets of rear surrounds ( I'm using a 7.1 array) lacks little or nothing in that area (detail and dynamics) being bettered IMV by only the AV2, and then only by a very small margin. Put it this way, if you could afford it, you'd go the AV2. If you couldn't, you wouldn't feel shortchanged by one of the top AV amps in combo with your Naim setup.

Even though I don't as yet have one, I consider a sub a necessity. Even more so than a centre channel. The SBL's go down to -6db@20hz in room; more than enough for satisfying and realistic HT. However, really top quality subs, designed for HT will add a lot more in terms of feel. Not what you can hear, but feel, i.e. moving the air and pressurizing it in the room, plus slam. Most cheap subs, or ones optimised for music (some of the smaller REL's for eg) simply don't go deep enough or loud enough to cut it in terms of serious HT IMHO.

Once you've experienced what a 15" Velodyne (or even better the 18" unit) can do for HT, little woofly boxes with an 8" unit just don't cut it anymore.

On the HT receiver front, from what I have heard, I'd opinion that Yamaha or Sony would be a good place to start. The Arcam is probably a better balanced product for HT/Music, but if it's HT you're after, the processing and DSP in the Sony and Yamaha would comfortably have the edge.

Note, that if we're talking the old adage " I want to hear it as the director intended it" then that means as one would hear it in a large theatre. That doesn't mean slow PA boomy bass etc, but the sense of a large space is pivotal in recreating the sense of immersion and being an active participant rather than a passive viewer in the HT/movie experience. In that regard, the DSP as offered by Yamaha and Sony is ahead of the Arcam, and most other mainstream makes on the market IMHO.

The only other way I've heard to approach that sense of space, is with very high resolution units - such as the AV2. I personally find the Arcam great for music, but too polite and 'small' in it's surround soundfield 'space' to be truly convincing for movies.

Hope this helps

Best regards

John...

This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)

Perhaps i´m in a different league of tastes altogether but, i don´t expect movies to have the same quality of sound as hi-fi, or perhaps i should say that nothing beats going to the cinema.

I own an Yamaha rx-430rds and a Sony dvp-ns705v (they are both cheap) wich doubles as a super audio cd player. I send the left and right channel to the Nait5 and the rest goes to the Yamaha, it works great for my needs. When i´m watching a movie i´m not analizing sound as i could do when listening to music, perhaps you are looking for something better than this, but i prefer to invest in a good stereo system than on an A/V one. Standards are changing fast, bla, bla, bla...

I found that having that hump lump of plastic (TV) between your speakers is seriously bad news for stereo.

As such, I'd suggest one of the following:
1. Ditch the TV in favour of a projector or flat screen display to clean up the room acoustics. Using that with your stereo and a tacked on av amp (for processing) and additional speakers would work fine.

2. Keep the TV, but completely seperate the stereo from your AV system. Mine is in the same room, but on perpendicular walls, which means you need to sit in a different seat, but that's hardly the end of the world. My personal opinion is that in AV land, having a better screen can make the requirement for spending £1000s on an AV sound system less important.

Firstly, I’m surprised that you think the Anthony Gallos might not be the best for sound as other than the What HiFi review (which in the same issue gave top marks to a Bose set up!), reviews of the Micro and, particularly, the A’Diva have been glowing. I’d go as far as to say that a single A’Diva as a centre and a pair of the smaller Micros as rears might be just the ticket for you.

There is of course the issue of tonal matching with the centre speaker – not only do you want the centre to be of very good quality, you don’t want it to sound out of kilter with your main speakers. I’d suggest that if you are unable to fine a decent, matching centre speaker then, as long as you can sit in the sweet spot you may as well try out the phantom centre option, certainly to begin with.

Another small centre that springs to mind, if you can find one, is the now discontinued M&K S85 – very small but amazing (monitor) quality. It even has two switchable tonal options – standard and ‘bright’ which might help with matching. Other than finding one, the only other possible issue is whether a budget AV amp could do it (and its 4ohm load) justice.

Other decent budget rear speakers that spring to mind are the Mission bipoles (£100 ish) and even the Eltaz HT-2 bipoles which used to be £150 (and got good reviews) but can now be picked up for less than half this.

I do wonder when it comes to budget AV amps, what make/model would go best with Naim. I’m sure most of the common names will work well enough but I can’t help thinking that something with a little more real grunt might be more suitable – thinking here of the cheaper NAD AV amps. The Yamaha E800 was a good unit but it is getting on now so, as well as not having DPLII, one wonders whether the decoding quality itself is not a little dated.

Other options might be a used processor (something like the Rotel RSP976) coupled with a decent budget stereo (if running without a centre) or 3 channel power amp. Another option if you went for a processor rather than an AV amp would be to use active speakers – not common but no reason why it couldn’t be made to work well.

On the sub one – ideally you should have one for home cinema – remember that the .1 LFE channel can go down way below 20Hz and I know of no main speakers that can deal with this properly – in fact very few can genuinely (and cleanly) play even down to the 20Hz that the 5 main channels of DVD can drop to. However, the subs that come with the satellites aren’t really what you are after here – you ideally want something to play deep and clean – the cheapest way of doing this is arguably something like an SVS sub which can only be personally imported from the States.

Just one other thought – I don’t personally buy this stereo is fine for movies idea – yeah okay you can watch the film and hear the sound but with a 5.1 soundtrack, two of those channels are supposed to come from behind you and that simply ain’t possible without rear speakers.

…………………………….

Johns Naim – regarding your bass management issue – I think you would probably be convinced that redirecting bass can be done seamlessly and successfully if you heard a fully active M&K THX set up – you’re talking £2K plus per speaker and yet none of them produce bass below 80Hz – the sub takes care of that. And lets not forget that THX, who of course know more than a little about home cinema, actually advocate ALL speakers only producing bass down to 80Hz with everything thereunder being redirected to the sub.

On top of this, even if you were able to find and install 5 full range speakers (how many truly drop to 20Hz?) then there is a distinct possibility of a sonic nightmare with 5 sources of deep bass in the same room – crikey, it can be hard enough to get one source of deep bass (a subwoofer) working well in a room, let alone five!

Couldn’t agree with your comments on subs though – having owned a big, pricey Velodyne in the past I know exactly what you mean about the smaller, weedy boxes not cutting it.

Matt.

Thanks for all the thoughts. Much food for thought.

Current plan is to go for the Cambridge Audio 540R which is around 250 at Richer Sounds. It's reasonably inexpensive, performs most processing I can imagine needing and seems to get reasonable reviews. Looking at this I'm not really convinced that the Yamaha DSP-AX750 is worth the extra 150. Although it does have the ability to delay sounds which may be useful later on. Anyhow, either way I'll then use the phantom-centre mode with the HiFi and skip the centre for now. As for rears, I'll just try my PMC LB1's for now which won't look right in the room but will give me an idea of whether rears are worth having. Worst case, I can just move them in and out of place as required.

Long term, I'm sure I'll be heading down the Naim road of AV2 + NAPV175 + Centre but just not right now (I'd probably embark on the financially ruinous path of CDS3, etc before the AV nirvana).

Some good suggestions though, Mr Sukebe as soon as I can find someone to take the large telly of my hands I'll be replacing it with a more sonically acceptable plasma alternative. (Anyone looking for a bargain Loewe 32inch Aconda check eBay anytime soon).

If anyone's interested I'll post any updates of my progression down the road of Home-Cinema partially meets HiFi.

[This message was edited by gareth_t on Wed 22 September 2004 at 22:40.]

Tom said:

quote:

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I've just dipped my toe in and found it worth the effort. I do have a separate TV room so there is no chance of running it through the main system.

---

I too have a separate room for the telly. I had a cheap-ish HT solution lashed up in there.... funny thing was it all worked so much better when I took the DVD into the lounge and connected it to the naim, and used a projector to throw pics on the wall between the SBL's using 2-chan. I gave up for the time being on HT in the TV room until I could afford a reasonable (read: satisfactory) setup - I now just watch the DVD on the loewe, using the inbuilt speakers.

Someone mentioned using s DVD player with a less-than-satisfactory processor inside. At this point I must remind all that DVD is very much a SOURCE FIRST item too. If you want a decent picture, you're really going to need a good DVD to start with - especially if you're going to push it through a projector.

my source is only fair-good; it's now 4 year old technology, and isn't a patch on even an Arcam DV88 (which itself is now outdated, but provided good image). Those who haven't seen what difference a good DVD source can make owe it to themselves to get a demo. I for one am looking forward to seeing the Naim DVD in the flesh.
HTH

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

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Some good suggestions though, Mr Sukebe as soon as I can find someone to take the large telly of my hands I'll be replacing it with a more sonically acceptable plasma alternative. (Anyone looking for a bargain Loewe 32inch Aconda check eBay anytime soon).

---

Personally I'd keep the Loewe Aconda until you are sure you've found a "flat" picture that will better it. If you're accoustomed to that quality of detail/colour, IMHO you're in for a long journey finding that panel.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

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Originally posted by Rico:
I now just watch the DVD on the loewe, using the inbuilt speakers.

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That was why I bought the AV thingy. The speakers on my Loewe Xelos are pants where as the little AE jobbies do an adequate job. The TV has no chance of going downstairs (there's a fireplace between the speakers, and the lifestyle prohibits) and my TV room tiny but maybe one day I'll take AV seriously enough to buy a better processor & speakers. (Now where's that dole cheque?)

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

Tom

I reckon your on to something there - I too have a Xelos (oh we of excellent taste!), the speakers are crisp and clear - without loads of body, given the svelte cabinet. They're certainly much more tuneful (in the Linnie way) than your average far-eastern television set.

I may have to admit defeat and connect up an old 2-chan amp and pair of speakers until my AV2 transforms itself from a mirage in the corner to the real thing.

I managed to stay away from the delights of the dole cheque during my time off; am off to rejoin the workforce shortly. I trust you're enjoying the spectacular colours up there with the change of seasons approaching!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Interesting...

Matt F said:

quote:

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I think you would probably be convinced that redirecting bass can be done seamlessly and successfully if you heard a fully active M&K THX set up – you’re talking £2K plus per speaker and yet none of them produce bass below 80Hz – the sub takes care of that. And lets not forget that THX, who of course know more than a little about home cinema, actually advocate ALL speakers only producing bass down to 80Hz with everything thereunder being redirected to the sub.

On top of this, even if you were able to find and install 5 full range speakers (how many truly drop to 20Hz?) then there is a distinct possibility of a sonic nightmare with 5 sources of deep bass in the same room – crikey, it can be hard enough to get one source of deep bass (a subwoofer) working well in a room, let alone five!

---

I must say whilst aware of THX recommendations via the crossover at 80hz, I've not had the pleasure of hearing a top THX sub/sat combo. I'm sure it could be done seamlessly, however I'm a bit limited on my own AV/HT journey in that I recognise that some aspects/knowledge of 2 channel apply, and others don't when assessing HT, and hence I'm on a learning curve, basing my comments as I am on what I've heard, and to a degree on what I've read (not in the hifi comics).

I've yet to try it on my newly arrived TADA9000, but my previous TAE9000 suffered a loss of detail and transient attack when using the likes of bass management, or indeed pretty much any signal filtering, even though it was all done in the digital domain. Of course the newer unit, or others may be different/better in this regard.

My thoughts re floorstanders are based on hearing various setups both sub/sat, using decent bookshelf 'hifi' speakers, and full range floorstanders (well, down to 30hz or so) and prefered the floorstanding setup, notwithstanding that as you mention, room tuning could become an issue. Dr David Greisinger, of Lexicon fame, wrote a few white papers regarding room acoustics and speaker placements, and apart from room tuning issues (one of the main advantages of a sub/sat system) it was certainly felt that stereo bass gave a much bigger and more ambient soundfield.

Notwithstanding the main argument for a sub sat system being the ease of setup, and using a 'dedicated' built for purpose unit to handle the bass, I personally have felt happier with the larger soundfield, and less obvious bass, and natural panning of effects etc that I have noticed when using floorstanders, or more to the point, semi-full range speakers all round.

But then again, as I haven't heard a top THX sub sat system, I could well change my mind.. :-)

As I understand it, one can discern direction of bass, down to around 40 - 30hz or so; below that it becomes much harder, as the longer wavelengths become more or less omnidirectional to all intents and purposes.

So perhaps, even if using a relatively full range floorstander, I'd probably set them small, and crossover to the sub at say 30hz or so; that way getting stereo bass in the rears, and hopefully minimising room problems with the really low stuff all going to the sub, provided the better processors don't muck up the sound too much with the signal filtering.

But yes, I need to hear a good M&K sub sat system, agreed!

BTW, having owned a Velodyne, how would you compare them to the better M&K,(twin driver push pull) or REL subs? I get the impression the REL's are highly thought of in music circles, less so in serious HT.

Cheers

Best Regards

John...

This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)