Some years ago when I was in the process of choosing a rack I listened quite extensively to the Fraim. While sounding ok I wasn't particularly impressed by it. In the end I choose a custom made rack from Samurai Acoustics (unknown outside NL) and got it made for Naim gear with 5 shelves. There are a few pics from it on this forum too. A great not sounding rack IMO and I'm still very happy with it. But...

A nice and helpful Naim dealer here in Amsterdam has a demo Fraim available and he said take it with you and try it for a week or so if you like. Since my system has gone through quite some upgrades I was kinda curious to have another go at the Fraim so I took it home. After a good few hours setting it up my system was playing Fraimed tunes...





AND?!?... Well, having only listened to my own rack for the last years at home, my jaw dropped to the floor again how huge the effect of a rack is. The system sounds completely different. The Fraim sounds VERY tight and dry compared to mine. Space and imaging are wider and more transparent but it also seems that the imaging and the sense of space of different records sound more the same. Sort of a 'one tone' effect. The Fraim sounds faster with more attack especially on snare drums and alike. The bass is thinner but also more detailed. The treble seems to have more 'zing' to it. On some records that's nice on others it's not. Voices in general are very good and well proportioned.

I've only spend a few hours listening but so far the Fraim impresses me for doing some beautiful things. I'm not sure about the super tight & dry and sometimes thin-ish sound. Something I immediately recognized from Geoff's system I listened to last week. As if the music flows a little less. But Naim absolutely build a very special rack that gives a very distinctive sound to a system. And it should be special given its price tag btw.

From the front it looks like a million dollars. From the side a bit less because the rats' nest of cables is much more visible. I've kept the same arrangement as in my own rack to make a fair comparison. What is really beyond me is that the Hi-line is bend sharply and jammed between the pre and rear central column. Same for the speakercables but they are not Naim.

The coming days will be interesting and I'm curious how things develop as the system settles down a bit more.


Richard.

You should try your Nac on the top shelf.

That would solve the Hi-line being jammed but as said, I want to make an apples & apples comparison first.

quote:

I'm not sure about the super tight & dry and sometimes thin-ish sound. Something I immediately recognized from Geoff's system I listened to last week. As if the music flows a little less.

Hi Richard...I think you probably need a bit of time to get used to the difference in presentation you describe. Obviously since nothing else changed the effect you are hearing is due entirely to the Fraim.

I like Munch suggest after a bit of running as shown for the 'apples for apples' bit, you could try a different stacking order. Putting the 102 on top and moving the Hi-Cap / NAT in between the CDX and the 180.

From what you described you heard from my system and your reference to 'tight and dry' I suspect you have got used to having a full rich tone which may be more vibrational in the bass with the Guaneri's.

This is very personal but I would not describe my system sound as 'dry'. The 500 is tonally very neutral yes, and the Kharma's are high resolution so what you get is a truthfull sound which is unforgiving of bad recordings.

Let us know as your ears become acclimatised how the sound develops with a bit of configuration change on the Fraim.

regards
Geoff

I don't want to alarm you but your speakers are about to fall over.

Since retiring I have been busily spending the kid's inheritance over the past year on upgrading from a 102/180 to a 282/250 based system. My last, and final for the foreseeable future, purchase was a 6 - shelf Fraim which of all my upgrades has left me somewhat underwhelmed.

The sound I now get made me think of an audio equivalent of a Polo mint - the 'middle' of the sound just seemed to disappear. The sound was clinical and somehow lacked the warmth/body I had begun to appreciate. So is it just that I need to acclimatise to the new sound? I am no expert on analysing the sound - I just know what appeals to my ears.

My configuration is to have power supplies at the bottom ascending up to the Nat 05, 282 and on top the CDX2. Is there any real alternative on a single rack?

Interestingly the only source, inc T/T, that actually sounds better on the Fraim is the Tuner which obtusely seems to have developed more weight and presence.

My original rack was an inexpensive (relative to the Fraim) glass and metal job - maybe I did one upgrade too many? I would recommend to any one thinking of an expensive rack upgrade to get, if at possible, a home demo.

Mike

Ktmax,

I dont have any placement suggestions for you. But I wanted to say that your set-up is simply gorgeous.

Regardless of the possible sonic improvements, it is sexy as hell.

Is there anything we can do about that spaghetti?

thanks,
Patrick

hiding spaghetti :
get a black foam or board cut to that size and put it on the sides. I did something like that for my computer desk which is open against the wall to hide the nasty looking hanging wires.

Or just know that you have a GREAT sounding system. When I go to classic car shows with a friend all the guys have their hood/bonnets up and proudly showing their matched clean cables.

I'm getting a s/h 52 Scap in a few weeks after servicing and I'll have to tear down my system and redo the fraim and cables from ground up. the shelves sure have gotten dusty in the last year. I'll be getting insulation for the NACA5 as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wolf2:


Or just know that you have a GREAT sounding system.

QUOTE]/

I second that. I set my system up and guided the cords to hang on the rack as neat and freely as possible, but setting the speaker cables up, I let them fall where they may and did not kink or fold. Great system, good sound, but who cares about the cable in the room going up the wall....the girlfriend finally got used to it.

rega1

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P: This is very personal but I would not describe my system sound as 'dry'. The 500 is tonally very neutral yes, and the Kharma's are high resolution so what you get is a truthfull sound which is unforgiving of bad recordings.

That is not what I meant Geoff, sorry if it came across like that. My system now has - to my ears - a certain dry-ness that we talked about last week too. It's no value judgment whatsoever.

Like I said, I'm enjoying listening to the Fraim (did I just say I'm listening to a rack?). As every rack, wire, shelf or component it does specific things with/to the sound. It portrays music in a certain way. And you 'only' have to decide if you like it or not. I try to stay clear of words like right or wrong, neutral, accurate or truthful. They are highly subjective, system & room dependant and a matter or personal taste and preference.

I'm not yet sure if I like (all) the sonic traits of the Fraim. I'm missing warmth and body that was there. Michael used the word clinical which crossed my mind too. No hard critisism, I'm only trying to describe what I hear.

Thanks for the compliments Patrick! (I think it's even better in the flesh)

Now back to the music.

Richard.

quote:

Like I said, I'm enjoying listening to the Fraim (did I just say I'm listening to a rack?). As every rack, wire, shelf or component it does specific things with/to the sound. It portrays music in a certain way. And you 'only' have to decide if you like it or not. I try to stay clear of words like right or wrong, neutral, accurate or truthful. They are highly subjective, system & room dependant and a matter or personal taste and preference.

...fair enough Richard.

Happy listening

Geoff

I'm not yet sure if I like (all) the sonic traits of the Fraim. I'm missing warmth and body that was there.

[/QUOTE]
Its ok doing a Fruit to Fruit test but at the end of the day its pointless.
The reason we go for Fraim is to get the best out of our Systems.You get one on home demo and you set it up like the rack you have.
And you are not getting the best from that IE your stacking is Wrong .
NO BLOODY POINT IN DOING THAT.
You set the Fraim and your kit up to get the very best from it.Then listen.
Munch

Munch I appreciate you passion but I don't think it's as black & white as you put it.

Just as in my own rack, the stacking order is a compromise of convenience and looks. The tuner and CDP are the most manually operated so that's why they sit high in the rack. If I decide for the Fraim I would buy and extra layer only to put the components one level higher. If moving the components around or a wrong stacking order is gonna make such a huge difference then something else is wrong IMO. This would mean that either the resonance behaviour is not consistent at different layers or that EMI interaction is strong ie the Fraim doesn't do much to prevent or minimize it. Or both. In my own rack (same price level as the Fraim BTW) the stacking order makes no difference worth mentioning. Which is a good sign IMO. I might swap the tuner/Hi with the pre just to try.

As for "the reason we go to Fraims", I'm not too sure. If it was not made by Naim but company X, how many Fraims would then be around on this forum? Less than a 10th is my guess... But hey, all mumbo jumbo as at the end of the day it only matters how it sounds.

I saw a picture of a black Fraim with light Maple shelves. Stunning. I can picture that in my room. Oh yes I can.

Richard.

OK guys, a quick pic to show I've followed your advise. I've changed the stacking order yesterday. Pre on top and the tuner and Hi below the CDX.



It makes a difference but a subtle one. The imaging got slightly more focussed with a little more space around musicians. Nothing dramatic fortunately.

I'm still struggling to get used to the sound of the Fraim. For sure it makes up for fascinating listening 'cos it does so many things so well. Especially imaging, space, micro dynamics and voices are simply marvelous. Sounds can just jump out of the background with such speed and clarity. Brilliant. But it also sounds a bit analytical, dry (don't know a better word) and incredibly tight. Sometimes a whiff glary in the treble (the glass has to show up somewhere I guess). The mid bass sounds thinner too. So now I'm kinda 'stuck' with a lot of things that are clearly better while the music isn't really more enjoyable to listen to.

But I have a few days of listening left to go. I really like to fall in love with the Fraim with its clever construction and drop dead gorgeous looks. But I'm not further than a 50/50 feeling yet. To be continued!

Richard.

Richard,

Nevermind the sound.

It looks gorgeous!

Hahahahahaha!... You know, to be honest I'm almost tempted to think "what the f**k, I wanna have it" !

Gosh this insane hobby...

Richard,

Think of it this way.

Any half way decent European designed furniture will cost about the same.

Richard,

I agree with all that you've written. You seem level headed and sensible, so make your own judgement.

It's a bit too easy for people just to say if you don't like the Fraim, it's because you've not set it up correctly. How many people have set up the Isoblue correctly and made a similar comparison? Gaps above and below all boxes, two stacks, both sitting on Fraim chips on a wood floor, spike inserts glued into legs and proper dowel insertions all improve the Isoblue beyond recognition.

The Fraim needs gaps, which at that price level, I think is wrong. One could buy a Superline for the extra expense.

Thank you Count.d. In these obviously pretty green neighborhood it can be difficult sometimes to only trust your own ears and not being influenced and prejudiced too much.

quote:

But I'm not further than a 50/50 feeling yet. To be continued!

You need to be a lot clearer than 50/50 before spending such a lot of money. You could have Isoblue and an XPS for less.....

Nigel