The Signals roadshow landed at 10.45am on Saturday morning for a Kudos fest, and didn’t leave until after 4.30pm. In fact, they enjoyed themselves so much, they even came straight back (for Andy's coat).

A very big 'thank you' to Alastair and Andy for your dedication and patience!


(Trying the Kudos C10s - walnut (I think we'd prefer sycamore or rosenut). Room not as messy as this photo looks - honest. 'Coffin' not as sonically troublesome as it looks - honest.)

Alastair and Andy brought with them all the speakers on the new Kudos range! - C1 (stand), C2 (floor), and their grown up siblings C10 and C20. (Or it would be better to put it the other way round and say the C1 and C2 are the younger siblings of the C10 and C20.)

Plus (to try out some electronics) a Supercap2, plus a 252 they happened to have with them.

I guess none of us realised that we would be over 5½ hours(!!), but it soon became apparent that our listening room - narrow but wide - wasn’t going to be straightforward to address. And we had to work our way through lots of things - with some surprises along the way - before the appropriate inane grin appeared on my face.

The first thing to happen was plugging the Supercap into the mains to warm up. And a nice cuppa (tea, Rasher! ).

The perceived problem with the current system (LP12-Lingo-Ittok-DV17D2/CDS2/82/2xHCs/250/Isoblue/NACA 5 ProAc D15s) was finding it rather full and/or imprecise at the bottom and rather compressed in the upper-mid/top.

Before Christmas, Signals had lent me some s/h Allaes for a week, but they didn't do the trick in my room, sounding rather aggressive overall (as JN, their former owner noted). But I loved the Allae's top, detail, speed, etc. and hoped it would be possible to find something of that, but with a bit more of the picture lower down.

So we tried the following:

Kudos C1 (stand), instead of D15s - a good start, nice balance and detail. The detail especially. But not yet unputdownable.

Kudos C2 (floor) – starting to get much closer to what I hoped, and to me better than the D15s in all areas (tuneful bass though not as deep sounding, imaging, detailed highs) at a similar price point new. - Had they been around at the time, I can imagine having had them rather than the ProAcs. But given the similar price point, I'm not sure I want to pay quite a lot of money to change over now.

(At some point around halfway through, can't quite recall exactly when, we also tried taking the CDS2 and 82 off their glass shelves/ball nutters. We found the CDS2 to sound better OFF the glass/b.n., the 82 better ON.)

Electronics time - to see if we should be following an 'electronics first' strategy. So ... D15s back in, with the SC2 instead of the 2 HCs.

After all the hype on the Forum about how much better a SC is than two HCs, I had expected something pretty noticeable (and the SC had had at least a few hours' warming by now).

Better yes, but not by that much - we all agreed. In fact, the level of improvement was distinctly underwhelming - and certainly not worth a net almost £2k to swap from 2 HCs.

It felt like that this option was really only worth doing if the SC would be with a view to an eventual step up to 252 - which, as the guys had one with them, we thought we’d try…

252 instead of 82. Again, better yes, but a distinctly underwhelming level of improvement, given that 252/SC weighs in at around £4k more than the 82/2HCs! Yes, partly it was not properly warm, but even so it should have wiped the floor. Clearly something else was holding back the sound - the speakers, we concluded.

Kudos C10 (stand) with 82 and HCs back in. Same basic box and bass driver as the C1, but Seas Crescendo tweeter, different crossover bits, damping etc.

WOW – tuneful tight bass, superb mid and upper, liquid treble, the frequencies going straight up and down from top to bottom with no obvious blooms or absences.

Inane grin suddenly on face, diving for more music – frankly, the first time in (by now) almost 4½ hours.

So much more came out with the C10s - the D15s are clearly the bottleneck. SORRY GUYS, I have always tried 'source first', but these speakers did so much more than the SC or even the 252/SC.

Kudos C20 (floor) – since Alastair and Andy had brought these with them, we thought it would be a shame not to try them.

Fuller, warmer, etc. I liked these too, very much. Alastair suggested that this should be the speaker to leave here for the extended listen during this week.

My one slight nagging doubt was that the C20s have bass where the D15s don't!! And though tuneful and well-described, being used to the D15s the upper bass did sound a bit forward across our narrow room. Might this dominate just a bit too much? Would they suit a longer room really? Or invite/tempt me to a better amp to really do these justice – a possibility so beyond wildest dreams, it's just not worth going there!

Also, we were all getting a bit tired by now and I was a bit 'speaker drunk'.

Outcome The ProAcs have been taken away - I think never to return.

I thought it would be better to leave the less expensive speaker, the C10s, on longer home dem to try a wider range of music played in different circumstances, including late evening quiet. But recognising we could have another go with the C20s if necessary.

The bonus is that I am no longer tempted to go 252 (or even 52) and SC, given the hardly overwhelming improvement we found over the 82 and HCs, to which I now feel recommitted – so rather than looking at moving up from these, I’m going to plan-in their servicing instead. (“So you see, wifey, overall we’ve saved money by buying these speakers!...”)

Now, writing a couple of days on, I have to say the C10s have been sounding bloomin excellent.

The turntable especially sounds brilliant (Dave Brubeck ‘Take Five’ on an original 1959 ‘Time Out’ was incredible – except for the double bass – see below).

If anything, the C10s have allowed a proportionately greater improvement on LP than CD. But I must stress that the C10s really do let the CDS2 shine through too – fine detail, resolution, control, and the good old PRaT etc etc. - It makes you realise just what these replay engines are really doing!

The Achilles Heel - any standmounts' Achilles Heel...?

We are treating this extended home dem like the 'second view' when house hunting - after the initial 'WOW' deliberately look for weaknesses, so have thrown some things at the likely weak point, the deeper lower end.

And we have discovered something that is causing us to go ‘ho hum’ a little bit in our deliberations. Will it be something we feel we can live with very long term?

As a standmount, even a very good one, the C10 doesn’t seem to like double bass very much … Trying to go right down into the frequencies, they seem to get ‘stuck’ because they can’t go down fully low enough, resulting in a not-totally-pleasant forward mid-bass resonance (double bass resonance rather than speaker mechanical) as they bump along at the bottom of what they can do.

For us, this would have a big - and significant impact - for Nick Drake, John Martyn and jazz! Hmmm…

Nevertheless, having been able to expose them to a wider range of music, we are still very impressed with the C10s. It's just a case of deciding whether depth of bass is the compromise we make, or go back to try the C20.

We have yet to try organ, but that feels like an appropriate next trial (but not with the kids asleep upstairs...!!)

All the best,

James

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Adam Meredith,

James

It sounds like you had an interesting day. Speakers are a nightmare to audition, and I wish you well!!

Nigel

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
(“So you see, wifey, overall we’ve saved money by buying these speakers!...”)

Like your style, James!

quote:

It's just a case of deciding whether depth of bass is the compromise we make, or go back to try the C20.

You know you want to!



Sounds like you had a great day, James, and clearly you've been enjoying yourself since, as it has taken until now to post about it!

Excllent write-up, James, but this

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
our listening room - narrow but wide

leaves me a bit confused. Do you mean to say the room is wide but not deep?

Exactly, Markus. About 3m deep in all (2.5m across listening space) but 5-6m wide.

That's a pretty good size, actually. I see the speakers need to be fairly close to the back wall. If I was in your shoes, I'd be tempted to keep the C10 (wonderful description you've given them) and experiment with a subwoofer that can handle the room modes, say a Velodyne DD12 or something.

James,

I have standmounts that deliver a very nice double bass sound - the biggest factor in getting it right for me was the filling of the stand. I ended up, after much experimentation (well a day), with fine quartz sand. I think in a warmer room I would have ended up with one third shot and sand. Am not sure what stands you have, but it might be an idea to experiment with filling in addition to all the fine-tuning of placement.

Huw

James,

I purchased the C10 standmounters just before christmas after Alastair home dem'd them alongside the C20's and i have to say in the context of my room which is not dissimilar to yours, the standmounters walked it. However recently talking with Alastair it would seem that Kudos have re-worked the C20 and have sorted some of the bass problems which were present for my demonstration, although you did probably hear the tweaked versions anyway.

I am a bit surprised with your 82/Hi - 252/SC2 conclusions as that is the upgrade i did last year, and for me it was a revelation, albeit slow to develop.

Incidently Alastair is due to deliver a new 552 later this week to go with my 300, and at the end of the month, Peter at Cymbiosis is delivering a newly Naimed LP12 with Dynavector Te-Katora Rua so i can't wait to see how the Kudos respond to the new blood!

All the best with the Kudos, i think they are superb, and hope they work out for you, standmount or otherwise.

Gary.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
As a standmount, even a very good one, the C10 doesn’t seem to like double bass very much … Trying to go right down into the frequencies, they seem to get ‘stuck’ because they can’t go down fully low enough, resulting in a not-totally-pleasant forward mid-bass resonance (double bass resonance rather than speaker mechanical) as they bump along at the bottom of what they can do.

Hi James,

I would be curious to know which recordings highlighted this characteristic - could you list any of them?

Thanks,
Bill

Thanks for the interest you've shown, everybody.

To respond to a couple of specific comments.

Huwge - I believe they're sand-filled Partington Dreadnought Broadside - Signals brought them along as they feel it is a good partnership with Kudos (if not too much else by the sounds of it). Don't know what Kudos' own S50 is like?

Gary - on the day, overall I too preferred the C10s, though I recognise that by the end of the afternoon I was a bit 'speaker drunk'. We did have the revised C20s.

And with regard to the SC/252 thing, I don't think I'm seriously suggesting that they are only a gnat's nadger ahead of the 82/2HCs, but rather that within the limitations of the clearly limiting D15s, this did not sound like a £2-4k upgrade! My budget will run to one item only, and both the C10s and C20s (and to some extent even the C2s) did more for less. If I now put the SC/252 back in, I would anticipate far more!!

Bill - so far, stuff with double bass...
John Martyn 'Solid Air' remastered CD
Nick Drake 'Five Leaves' Island edn vinyl
Dave Brubeck 'Time Out' 1959 edn vinyl

The first two are real favourites and played no less than fortnightly...

The sound is like the upper bass being pushed forward in the mix / over-excited a little, almost because the lower bass can't go down quite far enough to fully shape the lowest harmonic(? might not be using that word technically) of the rasping double bass.

The thing I'm still grappling with is this: with the C10s, is it just getting used to something different from the deep, but less cogent bass of the D15s?!

Perhaps if Gary's having no such problems with his C10s and Naimed LP12/CDX2-555PS/552/300, could be that the speaker is revealing a previously-unheard limitation further upstream!

This is a possibility I'm prepared to accept. Can't afford to do major surgery to that end of the chain - except a nice service to the 82 2007/8, the HCs 2008/9, the 250 2009/10, the CDS2 2010/11 - 'here we go round the mulberry bush' - but the XPS2 not until 2015!)

James

James,
At the moment i am still using the 252 with CDX2/555PS as both the 552 and LP12 are yet to arrive, however i regard your amplification as more than adequate for the C10's, in fact a Nait 5i did a sterling job when we tried it so an 82 should fly. I know what you mean regarding the bass of the standmounters and deep double bass, but i would expect them to loosen up a bit with run-in but at the same time would prefer the trade-off of articulation over extension, if of course i couldn't have both. In the meantime, from what you have said, i feel i would also like to re-visit the now tweaked C20's.

Gary.

Interesting - thanks for the info James.

By the way, I realize that everyone's tastes are different, but I really dig the Walnut veneer. Of course I'm biased - I ordered my own speakers in that specific finish.

Gook luck with the Kudos.

All the best,
Bill

James,
should that not be 'going round the saliabury bush'???

I know what you mean about the bass....I have a similar problem with my ATC SCM20SL. They just cannot go low enough with some music. Usually its not too big a problem for me though, and you get used to it.

All the best

Ryan

salisbury even

James,

We certainly enjoyed the 'session' on Saturday too. Thanks for an interesting day!

The placement of the C10's could still be worth playing with (both forwards and backwards) and just might help with the bass issue. The amount of toe-in could affect this too. Whilst not exactly touchy about placement in the sense of being awful in one position and brilliant in another, the Kudii (can we have a plural please?) do seem to change quite a bit over small distances.

After so many changes of loudspeaker, I am conscious that we could have missed the final nuances of optimisation.

Sorry I forgot the 282. Mind you it would probably have been an interesting comparison too far.

By the way, have you tried removing the glass from under the 82 yet? It just might cool the upper bass. On t’other hand . . .

Speak soon!


Alastair

quote:

Originally posted by billgpdx:
...I realize that everyone's tastes are different, but I really dig the Walnut veneer. Of course I'm biased - I ordered my own speakers in that specific finish...

The walnut is so beautifully figured that I would predict that 'Kudos walnut' single-handedly could well see the rehabilitation of the walnut finish from its '70s/'80s exile.

It is almost 'tiger-striped', which does make it very tempting ( Chillkram), but in fact so much so that the singular shape of the grilles doesn't sit entirely comfortably with it. For WAF the grilles have to stay there unless no-one is looking...



In our context it will have to be Sycamore to blend with the Natural Ash of the Isoblue racks and similar finish furniture (i.e. WAF), or Rosenut to blend with the Rosewood LP12.


(Slightly out of date equipment layout)

James

The grill looks like an enormous black tongue to me!

Nigel

quote:

It is almost 'tiger-striped', which does make it very tempting ( Chillkram),

Ooh you cheeky so and so, I nearly missed that one!

PROGRESS REPORT
After five days with the C10s, had a team talk with Signals. We all agreed that by the end of Saturday we were all a bit 'speaker drunk' - with four different pairs of speakers (as well as my own), a SC and a 252 to try out...

By the end, apart from the broad brush strokes, it was difficult to discern meaningfully the relative differences/merits of the C20s against the C10s. On reflection - hindsight being a dangerous thing - it might have been wise the leave the C20s here as well as C10s...

Nevermind! Over the next day or so, I'm going for a nice drive through the Suffolk countryside, to pick up the C20s for a weekend with both pairs here. By then I will have had the C10s and no other speaker for a week, so should be much easier to spot the differences!

Tough work this speaker demming - but hey, someone's got to do it...

James

I was only discussing this with Alastair yesterday, and he's going to bring the C20's along next week for me to do the same thing, should be interesting...

Gary.