I have been following the threads for some time now and have found them to be very informative. The question I ask has probably been answered before, so please excuse me if this is the case. It is true that when I go to see a live performance, the 'sound' is 'flat' and the positioning of the instruments is done by my eyes not ears (much). However, is it not likely that most people's hifi is likely to be able to outperform some commercial venue's sound system in terms of actual hi-fidelity. Could it be then, that the reason we dont get 'space' etc at a live performance is because of bad electronics being unable to reproduce this. After all, If a system can reproduce where the artists are playing in terms of space, then is this not a good thing?
Personally, I have just bought my first naim amplifiers, ie the baby ones (90/92) and like them a lot just because of the lovely music that they make, but if they did that as well as tell me where the artists are, what would be wrong with that?
Also, I would like to ask if connecting my cd player by means of phono plugs to the input that accepts them (aux, i think) affects the sound quality?

Thanks inadvance,

Moscow

From what I've heard of blues in the Chicago blues club B.L.U.E.S. (many times, long ago), the sound I get in the audience has virtually no localization. The sound came from the mono speakers. The sound system was execreble. The music was great, so....

I attend opera and orchestral performances regularly, usually sitting up top. The angle of view is narrow, and I'm far from the instruments. The ambient sound is a high proportion of what I hear, and localizing sounds is pretty difficult.. It's basically mono, AFA I can hear.

I heard a GREAT Chicago Symphony concert last night from the just above and to the rear of the stage behind the horns. 'Twas much easier to localize the sounds. But it was the dynamics that made the experience - dynamics and low level detail that gets lost in the mix when I'm in the Gallery.

My 82/2xhicap/250, NEAR 50M system started giving good localization with the addition of the 2nd 'cap - but I don't know why.

Someone said (maybe an Exposure guy) that he doesn't care where the musicians were on the stage, he wants to know why they're there.

The round earth view seems to be that that the system can do space only if it can do everything else. But one can easily do staging without P, R, T or dynamics - I've heard it several times.

My view is that dynamics are what I buy, so I want a system which can do that. This, BTW, may be why I found the 250 to be a better upgrade form a 140 than I thought an 82 for 72 swap would be.

PR&T's important, but dynamics is life.

I fear the concert is going to COST me - more expensive tickets for sure, and - gulp - 135s?

Phil

I went to a concert, unamplified, in our local town hall on Friday night. There was a small brass ensemble playing. I could, with my eyes shut, tell that the trombones were on the right, the cornets on the left and the euphoniums in the middle. The ensemble was about 7 people deep but there was no sense of depth at all.

Had this been recorded, I dare say the recording would have been miced (Miked?) in such a way as to introduce a wholly false depth because that is what producers think people want.

This seems more prevalent in classical recordings.

cheers

Nigel

Venue acoustics differ so much that its pretty much a case of interpretation.Dynamics are the bits that get you boogying to your chewnes,the hairs on the back of your neck going up and a feeling of being gobsmacked while your feet tap.If your not moved you have a problem.

Hey its no big deal enjoy the music and good listening

Basically, a good PA system will have a big dynamic range, masses of power and VERY low distortion. Too many bands go out on tour with PA systems which will make you deaf simply because there is no headroom. It's the distortion which is more harmful than the actual volume.

I'm sure we could get a fantastic stereo image going on at our next gig if we ask our road crew to alter the toe-in of the huge PA stacks, but believe me, most concert halls are total acoustic disasters it can take a couple of hours just to EQ the rig to make it sound tonally decent. Usually by this time the band are asking if they can get on with their soundcheck, and I suppose this is what's important.

Just because the bass player is stood house left, I'm not sure that's where the sound should be coming from, but I guess it's down to personal preferences.

[This message was edited by Michael Dale on SUNDAY 10 December 2000 at 18:52.]

almost perfect pitch...

and a half decent imagination.

It helps

Though occaisionally... it doesn't

????

Happy Xmas

P.

quote:

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My view is that dynamics are what I buy, so I want a system which can do that. This, BTW, may be why I found the 250 to be a better upgrade form a 140 than I thought an 82 for 72 swap would be.

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FWIW, I found preamp upgrades exert an altogether different change from poweramp upgrades. Going from 102 to 82 gave more music, better clarity and made the communication of musical emotion more effective and unforced. As I surmised in an earlier thread, it's as if the stage curtain that veiled the performers had been lifted.

Upgrading power amps (providing the preamp and sources are up to the task) provide more grip and authority. The biggest performance jump I've heard so far (and i've done 90->180, 180->250) is going from 250 to 135s. The 135s have finesse and staggering control all at once. I was replaying some records for the first time (after a thorough VPI clean) in a long time last night and I was absolutely stunned by how hard-hitting some "softer" recordings sounded.

In short, if you want musical content and cohesion, get the best preamp. If you also want to rock (hard) and really take control of your speakers, there is no substitute for cubic inches - or in this case, 500VA or more.

James

Locating the instruments and singers on a stage is a feature of our hearing system and has nothing to do with our eyes (I can explain it if somone asks) so a stereo system can repuduce an excelent image very close to this in a live music.

Arie

quote:

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You want to talk to Mike Hanson who can percieve, eyes closed, both width and depth in a live venue

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First, I'm talking about unamplified performances in good venues, not overamplified gigs in hockey arenas.

Second, I prefer sitting near the stage, so left to right is so obvious as to club you over the head. Depth is also pretty plain to hear, as the violins are 10 feet away (near) while the percussion section is fifty (far). Anyone who isn't deaf in one ear will hear "depth" in this situation. (You might even hear it if you were deaf in one ear. )

However, it's not the same as an American-style soundstage (i.e. overly palpable and precise). Even though it doesn't provide "pinpoint" imagery, you can perceive the relative positions of the musicians.

Of course, if I'm stuck way up in the balcony, this ability to recognize the relative positions of the various players is severely comprimised. I can still tell if it's the violins on the left, the cellos on the right, or the trumpet up on that balcony over there.

If we're talking recorded music, then it's an engineered event, isn't it? You're at the mercy of the sound engineer: If he gives you soundstage, then you have it. If it's a mono recording, though, then you're stuck. You can still hear "space", and you might even imagine "position", but these are all implied by reverberation, etc. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

quote:

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Basically, a good PA system will have a big dynamic range, masses of power and VERY low distortion. Too many bands go out on tour with PA systems which will make you deaf simply because there is no headroom. It's the distortion which is more harmful than the actual volume.

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Are you sure about the distortion? I always found that even the best PA systems had an intrinsic distortion and bias towards certain frequencies that made them sound like 'amplified live music'. Last night, I went to see JTQ in Edinburgh with the girlfriend. The venue had masses of power in their PA, but it just sounded distorted. I'd normally attribute this to overloading the amps (overdrive), but I'm not so sure...

About imaging:

If it can be done then it is preferable IMHO to a system that can't do it - assuming the other pieces in the musical jigsaw puzzle are present (i.e. the general truthfulness of reproduction (e.g. timing, frequency response and dynamics)).
I'm all for realism and wouldn't want a PA in my living room (I've had one, and it's not nice )

About volume:

As a drummer, having played in a number of bands, I can do without extremes of volume these days. It's all too easy to throw power at sensitive speakers and produce a harsh, powerful sound. I'd much rather the system had the authority and 'truthfulness' to reproduce the music accurately and with vigour, rather than just blasting out. I'm sure everyone else here agrees, since nobody ever mentions Cerwin Vega in the same sentence as Good Sound. Doh!

John

Thanks for the excellent responses to my postting. I think that really has helped to clarify a few things for me. The only thing to do now, then is to get on with enjoying the music (and save for a hi-cap!!)

thanks,

moscow undefinedundefined

Compared to the bare system, this will give you added dynamics and grip like an amp upgrade, and dditional inner detail, integration/cohesion, sweetness, and general musicality of the preamp upgrade.

To JJ, we may hear similar things comparing amp to preamp upgrades, but value different aspects of the improvements. But then again, maybe we hear dissimilar things. Oh, well.

Regards.

Clean sound, gut-wrenching dynamics and precise LF timing are the first things that need to be addressed in a good system.

Once these aspects are settled, a lot of things fall in to place. Including soundstaging. An often ill-advised comment is that Naim speakers cannot image, worse still - they're not DESIGNED to image.

I find Naim speakers image far more realistically than the Magneplaners and Apogees that I use in my other systems.

Taking a cue from Frank and Jawed in the old Forum, the same can be done with a lot of speakers that are designed to sound balanced (flatter) when up against a nice, blank wall.

Position them as far apart as possible without getting a hole-in-the-centre effect nor losing LF integrity. If you sit far away enough, the sound will come from the ENTIRE wall behind the speakers.

The effect is stunning. Coherence, which Naim excels in, is further aided by rock solid image depth, width and height. And the better Naim rig, the better the clarity and visceral impact for every instrument that is locked into the soundscape.

That said, I find the need to recreate absolute hall depth and height and width irrelevant - the bulk of multi-tracked recordings feature poorly in these terms.

Just as well, since a good hifi should make a good point of the emotional aspects of the performance rather than the technical. Otherwise we get intellectually driven to listen to audiophile discs only. And that defeats the entire purpose of getting into hi-fi in the first place.

Regards.

[This message was edited by Vik on WEDNESDAY 13 December 2000 at 06:12.]

Take this thread for instance. Perfectly normal questions, fine answers and views (whether you agree or not) and yet some find it appropriate to rate it as crap.

All done in a nice anonymous way of course...

If someone dislikes a thread just skip it or say so and sign with your name!!

Nice to get this of my chest...

Richard.