One way of using a quote - one day I'll get around to learning how to use a piece of software! (in joke)

I strongly suggest that you either:

Find a more understanding and accommodating dealer (sweet as you could then send the duff dealer a copy of your purchase receipt)

Ask to speak to the manager of the dealership you first approached and inform him that you are seriously interested in developing a relationship and dropping a couple of grand on him at this stage conditional on him performing satisfactorily

We hold these truths to be self-evident speech:

Your dealer should be in a position to discuss your requirements in an informed, objective and supportive way. Your dealer should then be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction performance differences between various options at any particular price and performance point (subject to some limitations). Your dealer should be in a position to install the equipment and leave it working to your satisfaction in your own home. (Read any Naim manual).

I appreciate that there are many obstacles to all dealers meeting all these requirements in all cases. We as customers should, perhaps, no expect two hours of undivided attention on a busy Saturday afternoon without an appointment. However, it seems to me that we as customers have a role to play in raising standards and expectations. It is after all we who are the most important in the whole chain. It is our money and it seems to me to be folly for dealers not to appreciate this and to realize that customer satisfaction and loyalty is lifeblood to any business. It is not as if the extra expense in doing the job right in selling a piece of high-end equipment is not recognised. This is why the margins in the industry are what they are. These are elements of what makes a good dealer and you do yourself (nor those following you) any favours by accepting any less.

This is turning into a right rant.....

Maybe a new thread

OK guys comments?

Can't agree more with you on the above. Dealers need to be competent, unbiased and willing to tailor systems to the requirements of the customer.

I have heard so many potentially excellent systems sounding truly awful at dealers over the years, and have often received very biased advice due either to ignorance, stupidity or profit.

Favourite comment from a nameless but well known Naim dealer witnessed in the past few years: "The 72 is great, the 52 is great, the rest are crap, and they are all grossly overpriced, you want to buy brand X instead…". Classic stuff indeed.

Time to name and shame the bad 'uns?

Tony.

The biggest load of bull s**t I ever heard was in a large white goods retailer while I was waiting to buy a dented washing machine (£100 off and it lives in the garage) the spotty oink in a suit he would grow into said about speaker stands "some people prefer the sound of speaker on stands some people don't its a question of choice" he was selling a stacking system for £600 and he was asked what the difference was between that and the next one up he said "its got more power a better equaliser and the cassette is fully digital" I think he meant the controls, he hadn't got a clue!! I could have gone over and said something but I bit my tongue.

pete

I don't think so.

Due to my type of job (ex-RN) I've moved around a lot. This has given me the opportunity to visit many specialist dealers.

Believe me, I am not easily pleased, but I could list a lot of excellent dealers. It would take me all evening to write chapter and verse about some of the fantastic service I've had over the years from these people. I've only come across one case of 'dodgy salesmanship' but I won't go into that in detail, it's really nothing compared to the good ones.

I wonder if I'll be in a minority as this thread develops. Maybe someone should start a 'good dealer' thread

Brian

quote:

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Time to name and shame the bad 'uns?

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I would rather people pointed out the few good ones. I don't belive I have been into a dealers for over 10 years that truly knew what they were doing, and passed that benefit onto there customers.

I have three freinds who have bought Naim systems recently (from three seperate dealers) and all 3 were told not to use Naim cable, one was even told to bi-wire I am fed up having to go round with some NACA5 and prove to them that the dealer is a chump, and then set the system up correctly for them.

Kevin.

I arranged an audition of the Integrated Krell amp, and the "Cheapy" one box CD player. The guy who was conducting the demo seemed more interested in talking about how great he thought the kit was, and not at all interested in our thoughts. To cap it all off, he also spent the majority of the time slagging off Naim kit.

Apparantly, he used to own a 52 / 2*135 which he traded in for the Krell integrated we were listening to. According to him the Krell "murdered" the 52 / 135's, which i found somewhat incredible, as that was the worst demo i've ever been to in my life. The Krell just killed the music, and i actually prefered my old Pioneer A-400 and PDS-801 (costing about £600) to the Krell (costing about £5500)!!!

For the record, i'm putting my money down in a couple of weeks time, and will be ordering a CDX / 72 - Hicap / 140 from a Naim dealer in Banbury, who i think is really very good indeed. My Father has bought all his Naim kit from there, and not only are they extremely helpful, but are very knowledgable about Naim, and certainly ensure that you are happy with what you are buying. I have no hesitation about spending my hard earned cash there, and am looking foward to many years of pain-free upgrading.

Matt

Cut their margins i reckon, they get 50% mark-up currently.

naheed...

Not true at least in the case of Naim. IIRC Dealer margins are 33% of the retail price less VAT. This assumes they pay within 7 days of invoice otherwise they lose another few percent.

I don't know how much the owner of a traditional small hi-fi shop makes in a year but I bet its considerable less than the majority of his Naim customers.

Matthew

Is it just me or does high end now mean very expensive for not a lot?

Read any hi-fi mags recently?Did the mags regards the Path Premiere reckon it sounded unbelieveably good?Who reckoned otherwise?How big is Path Premiere,s advertising budget with such mags?Is this the primary reason for such an umbelieveable review.

My dealer was based in Swiss Cottage London and with hindsight I can say from the bottom of my heart he sucked.

Guilty of producing a lousy picture with laser disc in order to promote DVD when weeks earlier he had the laser disc set up so good it beat the DVD hands done on quality of sound and equalled the picture quality.

Oh yeah.......He reckons Mana don,t work despite their LP12 was on a wall shelf.I would feel no remorse in giving the oik a punch on the nose.

Never overcharged me though unlike Grahams hi-fi.

I,ll never trust the blighters again hooch

He gets paid a crap wage, sells mobile phones to rude peasants all day long and his only training consists of 'you WILL NOT let the punter leave the shop without an extended warranty'

Most people don't care about the sound of their hi-fi. It sits on the floor and bangs out a tune (sort of) and that is all most folk want.

Its people such as you and I, sittng at a PC at 12.30am on a thursday morning when we should be sleeping, that are bothered about our little black boxes.

Thats why we don't buy our systems from a well known high street store and its why we shouldn't curse the poor 'oik' for doing his best on the front line.

Rob.

Simon - Music, the Ultimate Upgrade.

I think you and Matthew are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to getting satisfactory advice from dealers (although, I'll be the first to question the weenie boy stuff he is feeding you). Hence, your advice to others on this matter is consequently flawed. In my experience, I am always the one who has to give dealers advice about Naim, not the other way around. Furthermore, there are dozens of people on this forum who know more than the entire lot of dealers put together. What the hell is a merchant going to tell you that the Flat Earth Patrol can't? AFAIAC, a dealership is useful mainly for letting you take something home to listen to it. The idea of any dealer coming to my house to set up my stands and equipment is simply laughable.

I'd be much happier to have no dealers at all and buy directly from Naim at 50% the retail price. If you need to listen to it first, go to an audio buddy's house: that's how things work over here at Canada's audio headquarters.

Vuk.

You should have seen my dealer using his whole weight to drive the spikes in the middle box of my SBL,s when assembling them and then levering the box upwards at various corners to get them level.A total contradiction to what I,d learnt from the late J.V.

If Hi-Fi dealers are so good how come they,re going bust or is it that the majority of goods they have to sell are overpriced and underperforming?

Good Riddence....hopefully only the good will survive but I doubt it.

Wishing you good sounds hooch

Music is the winner. Thanks to Julian and his Hi Fi Pixies!

Best wishes,

Chris.

If you guys knuckled down and stop moaning perhaps you would get the pleasure that I obtain from my system, and the honest advice of a good dealer

I'm sorry if your dealers aren't as good as Chris but I doubt that you would be happy if none existed.

Haven't seen you for ages, must drop in and start talking about what we need to do about speakers.

Cheers

Cheers

John

quote:

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In my experience, I am always the one who has to give dealers advice about Naim, not the other way around. Furthermore, there are dozens of people on this forum who know more than the entire lot of dealers put together. What the hell is a merchant going to tell you that the Flat Earth Patrol can't? AFAIAC, a dealership is useful mainly for letting you take something home to listen to it. The idea of any dealer coming to my house to set up my stands and equipment is simply laughable.

---

If you are such the consumnate audio professional, why not step into their shoes and help them out on the weekends, perhaps even as a part-time employee? (Assuming you've not worn out your welcome...)

It's different on the other side of the counter (or phone)--those of you who've ever worked in retail for any short period of time may relate to this, and, in most cases, it makes you both appreciative of proper service and disdainful of cocky know-it-all attitudes on either side of the retail transaction.

Dave Dever, NANA

P.S. For what it's worth, it is often the case that our most satisfied customers were once quite difficult to deal with at some point--perhaps, justifiably, they had concerns about not getting top performance out of their purchase(s). This is where good dealers' (diplomatic) experience succeeds in solving potential problems.

[This message was edited by David Dever, NANA on THURSDAY 07 December 2000 at 07:00.]

Chris

We don't all feel this way!

Brian

It's strange, but the traditional methods of selling kit when upgrading now seem (in the UK) to have dried up totally. We now have a plethora of second-hand dealers advertising huge amounts of stock in the magazines, and it's really hard to sell gear through the classifieds. This may annoy our overseas contributors, but I've just failed, over 2 months, to sell either of a pair of HiCaps at half new UK price.

I say keep the traditional dealers and avoid the secondhand merchants unless absolutely necessary.

I don't really understand why you couldn't sell your Hi-caps, as these are the key to many upgrades. In fact when I bought a Supercap I was thinking of hanging on to the HI-cap for when I go active. In the end due to a need to eat and stuff I placed an ad on Loot and the Hi-cap was gone in a week. I suppose the advantage to the customer where second hand "dealers" are concerned is that you can phone up, put it on the old flexible friend and have it delivered to your door within a day or two. A bit easier than the ten hour round trip I made to buy SBL's a few years back!