I see it plugs into the tape output and needs an external PSU - Is a flat cap worth buying over the NASPC (how much is a SLIC ?)

Anyone recommend headphones in the £100 - £150 range.

Any help appreciated..

cheers

James.

>>I see it plugs into the tape output and needs an external PSU - Is a flat cap worth buying over the NASPC (how much is a SLIC ?)<<
The Flatcap should be better--can you do a dem?

>>Anyone recommend headphones in the £100 - £150 range.<<
Have a look at AKG.

Vuk.

I do, however, have a Headroom Max, which I think is an excellent product, though reasonably expensive. I believe the Home Headroom, which is considerably cheaper, is almost as good. I also have two kit amps: one from Hart Linsley Hood, which is extremely good, and has a separate, very high quality power supply; and another kit headphone amp from Hi Fi world (which uses valves) which was a bargain (I think less than 200 pounds), and sounds as good as the other two (although I needed help finishing this one, since it's not for the technically inept). I emphatically do not recommend the X-Cans, which is X-Crap.

Headphones in that price range: Headroom offer Sennheiser 580s for US$199, which should squeeze into your price range. I think these are the best headphones out there (and I also have the 600s). The Grado 125s or 225s might be preferable if you listen to rock exclusively (I have some 325s and find them tiring to listen to and very inaccurate, but for Green Day and Silverchair, only the Grados will do). I don't share Vuk's enthusiasm for the AKGs: I've heard the 301s, 401s and 501s, and found them a bit too thin and bright for my tastes, but you may like that kind of sound.

As I live in an apartment, work reasonably long hours, and have an agreement with my neighbours not to play music after 10pm, I rely on headphones for about 50% of my music listening (as well as TV and movie watching), which is why I have so much experience with headphone amps and headphones (I also have a few other pairs of headphones I haven't mentioned).

Ross

BTW--A friend tried an ARO recently in a non-Naim system (on LP12) and prefered the Ekos because the ARO sounded too warm and bloated. What do you make of that one?

Vuk.

quote:

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No excuses now Ross, you are definitley a mushmeister or colouration freak. The Sennheiser 580s are like the B&W of headphones: pretty, sugar-coated sounds with little sense of timing or phrasing.

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Vuk,

First, the Sennheisers are not mushy or coloured, nor do they have problems with timing or phrasing (whatever that means; if you ever hear headphones forming phrases, you might want to check your lithium intake). I think I finally have the key to understanding the sort of sound you like, from an offhand comment made on the Mana forum. It appears that your speakers are, if I remember, "so bright as to cause migraine". Although I've never heard your Tannoys (which is not surprising since no one else on the planet either seems to use them or sell them), it is certainly consistent with a liking for AKGs, Rega turntables and Mana.

Second, it is rather odd calling on the support of one review to back your claim. I can think of few if any reviews of the Sennheiser 580s and 600s which do not describe them as the current state of the art in headphone design. I haven't raised the Stereophile class A status of the Sennheisers, because I don't respect their reviews. I also don't regard Listener's reviews as being any more authoritative.

I deliberately expressed my suggestion above as being one of personal preference, without any inference that you are "wrong" to prefer AKGs. However, since you insist on taking this insulting tone, I will just reiterate that anyone who likes a high pitched, thin, whining, bright, migraine-inducing sound, should check out the AKGs, and also perhaps these Tannoys Vuk keeps plugging. (Apparently the Tannoys are also inexpensive. I wonder why?)

Ross

PS I feel much better now. I always enjoy these mutual insult sessions.

quote:

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BTW--A friend tried an ARO recently in a non-Naim system (on LP12) and prefered the Ekos because the ARO sounded too warm and bloated. What do you make of that one?

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I don't make anything of it. Your friend should have his hearing tested.

PPS. We've already established that you are not familiar with the sound of any component in my current system - except half the record player - so your "treacle" comments are clearly made from a position of complete ignorance.

PPS Don't take any of this personally, of course. Still looking forward to receiving your CD.

The Listener folks (one owns Exposure gear, the other has Naim) both preferred the Naim Headline, by the way. Makes me want to try the AKG 501s with the Headline, if one floats my way again.

The AKG 501 is considerably less expensive than the Sennheiser 600, so I'd start there. Maybe put the savings toward a better headphone amp - like the Headline.

Ji

I use the headline with the PSU, it's fine. I'm sure the flatcap, hicap etc. sound great, but I couldn't justify it with the amount of time I listen to it. At the time of purchase, I did a comparison with the X-can which was about half the price. I really wanted to buy the X-can, because I did not want to spend that much money on it, however, having done the demo, the headline was more refined, so once again I went for the more expensive Naim option.

Personally, I'd take Vuk's comments about Sennheisers with a pinch of salt. I have an old pair of 580s and they sound good. However, I did a very short demo of some Grado's recently, and they may be worth checking out. Sounded very open, but I'm sure there would be far too much bass for Vuk's taste.

One warning, at the time, I had an old 72 with two phono inputs. As the headline uses one of your tape inputs, you may find yourself short of inputs. Gave me a great excuse to upgrade to the 82

David

You can easily source Sennheiser 580's for £100 these days. I run them on a Creek OBH-11, with an Aro lead. It's not a very flat-earth sound, and I suspect that the 590's would be significantly better. I'm not too serious about the can solution in my system, hence the £200 total outlay. It does fit the bill, but I suspect it could be improved upon at the price. In a departure from source-first logic, I'd like to hear some good AKG's or even some Grado's on this setup; that way I could at least figure out if it was the Amp or the Cans contributing most to the sonic character. I would not characterise the 580's or 600's as syrupy.

I heard the Headline with AKG's(not sure which model) from a slimline system on the Naim CD's stand at the Bristol show in Feb this year - it rocked.

Yeah - how much is a Headline anyway? And is a SLIC included?

Rico - musichead

ricomuzik@hotmail.com

PS - the OBH-11 has a set of inputs as well, so although it's not the best tape solution, if you used a full four-wire tape cable you could use both cans and a tapedeck on the same input.. until you got an 82 or 52 of course!

James.

PS - Headline around £230 last time i checked.

Yep that is exactly what I thought of them. I have listened to the 580s, 600s, and the Grado SR80s. The Grados were the only ones that got me involved with the music even though the Sennheisers, and particulary the 600s, were obviously better from a hifi perspective.

I managed to get myself a set of sennheiser hd600s for £148.95 from PRC in a hifi mag. I would have prferred a set of grado 225's, however for long periods of listening they were not very comfortable and the hd600 are.

Tim

Have you tried the PSC vs HiCap comparison. What are the differences?

David

James.

Rico.

Perhaps, but when you compare to AKGs it's like B&W 804s vs. SBLs.

Vuk.

We sell Grado and Sennheiser headphones in the shop. I have to say that the new line of Sennheisers seems nowhere near as well built as the older line, which is a shame. They remain very comfortable indeed - arguably more so than the Grados. I find they have a more reticient presentation than I would wish. Apart from the HD600's (which are very good but more expensive), they are a little wishy-washy, vague and laid back.

The Grados are the very anithesis of the Sennheisers. They are not quite as comfortable (a function of the new foam-like material they use), but they have a vibrant involving presentation, which I find quite captivating by comparison to the Sennheisers. That said, I wouldn't necessarily buy one set over the other since comfort is just as much a factor as sonic ability with headphones.

Another make worth checking out if you can find it would be Beyerdynamic. The old range was very well made, fantastically comfortable and a presentation between the Sennheiser and Grado. I don't know what the new range is like (or even if they're being sold in the UK any more). I have no experience of the modern AKG's.

Regards,
Frank.

When I use words like "mushmeister" you may take the liberty to infer that I'm exaggerating a bit and kidding around a lot. When I first heard 580s I was blown away at how good they were. At that point I had not heard anything better than Sennheiser (though the competition was stuff like Sony), but then a few weeks later a friend brought over his old cheapo AKGs and, while they certainly did not sound as pretty, were much more fun: usually for me this means better timing (relations between the rhythms) and phrasing (the articulation of a musical phrase--I thought a classical music fan would not need an explanation of this). Since I have not heard current AKGs, I wanted to point out the fact to the original poster and I used a recent Listener review as evidence to suggest that things have probably not changed very much. I don't normally quote reviews and generally place no value in them, but the more I read Listener, the more it seems to me that they are very much on the ball. Their current small speaker showdown features 4 units (among a total of 8) that I have heard and the descriptions the two reviewers give are shockingly similar to my own perceptions. With a magazine like Stereophile, on the other hand, I am left utterly baffled that their staff can write what they do about Krell et al.

As for my speakers, the treble is actually more tame than that of your ES14s--Steve Karlik used to comment that when I heard the Epos they would probably make my ears bleed--well, it really wasn't that bad, though I had tremendous reservations about the innacurate bass, although the most recent audition, with Mana beneath the source, performed a miraculous cure. Going back to Listener for a bit, Art Dudley (I think) once commented on the irony of how big speakers that do bass in abundance and phenomenally well appear lean. So many times, I have tuned my system in completely the wrong way in search of more/better bass, only to realise that the "leaner" sounding options are the correct and most satisfying ones.

When you criticise Naim gear (and my setup, which you haven't heard) for having a lean sound, it's hard to know what to make of it and it's very possible that you have different criteria. I can appreciate that the lower end stuff can be harsh and it seems that Exposure is competitive in that bracket. I highly suspect, however, that it could take on top-flight Naim, partly because Exposure do not seem to make a top-flight pre-amp. With this headphone issue, it's also very possible that an Exposure fan would prefer Sennheiser, while a Naim user would opt for AKG. The posts that have followed seem to support half of that equation.

As for the ARO comment, I merely meant to suggest that different brands of electronics down-stream could produce radically different results. You thought the ARO was thin compared to an Ekos, my friend (also with a non-Naim system) found it relatively thick. The one time I heard an ARO it was dark and explosive sounding in a very impressive way. I still suspect that your dealer doesn't know how to set it up properly, but again it could be that it does bass in what I think is the "correct" manner and you perceive to be "lean." It's funny that you thought the "thick" bass of the Ian Pooley disc made it impossible to enjoy; at my place, it sounds luxurious, transparent and quick. In fact, it is one of the best productions of dance music I've come across--just wait until you hear some of the messes on the CDR I've sent you

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on FRIDAY 08 September 2000 at 17:07.]

Regarding your suggestion of Beyerdynamics, the newer ones are not quite as good as the ones made a few years ago. I think that, like the new Sennheisers, they are trying to produce headphones with a lower impedance for the portable market, but are compromising sound quality as a result. I have a pair of Beyerdynamic 931s which are good, but a bit too light and thin for my tastes compared to the Sennheisers. However, again, some people may prefer this sound - in fact they sound quite similar to the AKGs.

Vuk,

quote:

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As for my speakers, the treble is actually more tame than that of your ES14s

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The ES14s are long gone. The Dynaudio 1.3SEs have been running in for a week and are just fantastic.

quote:

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As for the ARO comment, I merely meant to suggest that different brands of electronics down-stream could produce radically different results. You thought the ARO was thin compared to an Ekos, my friend (also with a non-Naim system) found it relatively thick. The one time I heard an ARO it was dark and explosive sounding in a very impressive way. I still suspect that your dealer doesn't know how to set it up properly, but again it could be that it does bass in what I think is the "correct" manner and you perceive to be "lean."

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It is entirely possible that the dealer did not set the ARO up correctly. However, I have assumed that this is not the case because (1) all his other customers seem to be as happy with the ARO as most of the people on this forum and (2) my experience is consistent with the descriptions in reviews, John Atkinson's in Stereophile in particular (and again, I don't place much credence in that magazine, but in this case JA's description of the sonic characteristics of the arm exactly matched my experience), and also comments from other unhappy ARO users on and off the forum. The difficulty I had with the ARO was not the lean bass, but the complete absence of the bottom octave (which I know is there, because the Ekos produces it), a recessed midrange, and an exaggerated top end. However, it is certainly possible that a lot of people would like this type of sound; from what I understand of your tastes, I imagine you would be one of them. The ARO is however very fast - more so than the Ekos - and this could explain the "explosive" quality you describe, but I cannot imagine how it could be described as "dark", unless this reflected the rest of the system.

quote:

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I highly suspect, however, that it could take on top-flight Naim, partly because Exposure do not seem to make a top-flight pre-amp.

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When I took a CDX home for a demo a week ago*, I listened again to the store's main system of CDX/XPS, 52, 250 and the very big Naim speakers (mainly to get an idea of the CDX with and without XPS). I still found it a difficult system to listen to - there was a harshness and lack of subtlety that had me thinking of Mike's wife's "ear raping" description. Again, this could be a set up issue, but it seems unlikely. As to the Exposure preamp, I have never listened to the 52 on its own, but I have heard a lot of preamps over the years as I foolishly tried to improve on the perfection I was getting from my Exposure amps. I found none better than the Exposure preamp, and the new Exposure 21 is in my view as good as any preamp in the market (assuming one likes the Exposure sound to begin with). The fact that the Exposure preamp is less expensive than the 52 and comes in a single box does not necessarily mean that it is less good. And if "goodness" of hi fi can be described in terms of enjoyment and satisfaction, I don't think that there is a better piece of hi fi kit available.

quote:

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It's funny that you thought the "thick" bass of the Ian Pooley disc made it impossible to enjoy; at my place, it sounds luxurious, transparent and quick.

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It wasn't so much the "thickness" of the bass, but the overwhelming nature of the beat, which I guess is not surprising from dance music. However, this could have been a function of the (departed) ES14s which, as we know, do tend to bloat the bass. The Dynaudios have a much tighter, more integrated and tuneful bass, so perhaps dance music will sound better balanced on the new speakers.

quote:

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When you criticise Naim gear (and my setup, which you haven't heard)

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I've never criticised your set up, for that very reason. However, I have now formed a picture of the type of sound you like. In all seriousness, it does seem that you like a fast, bright, lean sound - and there is no implicit criticism in this comment, just an observation.

Ross

* In case you were wondering, I felt that the CDX (without XPS) was very good, and I could easily have lived with it, but it was a sideways move from the Meridian, involving a different set of trade-offs. I couldn't therefore justify buying it. However, if the position had been reversed and I owned a CDX, and demo-ed the Meridian, I would likewise have stuck with the CDX.

Ross.

I like a fast sound, but not a bright one and lean only as it expresses the lack of bloat and colouration. You may have had some bad experiences with Rega and Naim, but if you don't believe me, just ask Mike Hanson how the system sounds. I will admit, however, that I am prepared--reluctantly--to sacrifice tonal things for musical ones.

It's very rare that I disagree with someone (apart from round-earth knuckleheads) with what sounds better or worse when we are in the same room, listening to the same stuff, so arguing with a person halwfway around the world is a bit silly and I strongly suspect that nuisances like mains, rooms and racks are bigger variables than anything else. As for your dealer's inability to impress you with a 52, well that's been my experience with all dealers except one (who is no longer a dealer). Tony made a useful disclosure in another thread about looking for flaws in his setup when the system sounds nasty (I can only imagine what you would make of the leanness of his 32.5/Kan rig). I will also confess that, until this summer, when I finally rearranged my furniture, got a new floor and Mana, my system, in spite of enormous efforts, was never set up the way it should have been (you can ask Monte about this one).

BTW--I suspect if you took some Mana home you would love it: having tried it under the CDX, I now think the player is nasty, unrefined, tonally messy, rhythmically confused without it. Above all, you would delight in the articulation of complex harmonics that produces that lovely tickling feeling on the ribs: something rarley heard through hi-fi, except perhaps Exposure's "perfect" pre-amp--is that the one that has all those Exposure users wishing a 52 was less expensive or that Exposure would make something as good?

Vuk.

quote:

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>>I would not characterise the 580's or 600's as syrupy<<
Rico.

Perhaps, but when you compare to AKGs it's like B&W 804s vs. SBLs.

Vuk.

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<cue Homer Simpson voice> Mmmmmm. SBL's.

I think I have heard the 804's. I realise you're making comparisons, and my 'can' experiance is limited. Still don't think the 580's are syrupy, though.

Rico - musichead

ricomuzik@hotmail.com