Amp failure?
Polluted mains?
Broken speaker?

No. Everything works, unfortunately.

I have just come back home after listening to the 'big' system at Salisbury (CDS2/52/500/NBLs).
I have discovered what High Fidelity is. The best that I can say is that when you listen, you just can't think about how powerful the amp is, or how refined the cd is and so on. You only think about music. Close your eyes. Open them and feel surprised there are no musicians in the room! It really drove my brain away. When we stopped the cd player, I could only think 'one day I will have one too'. I dreamt of it at night.

My girlfriend, who is really more involved in furbishing our future house, was really impressed too, and concluded that we could cut on hand-made floor tiles to save for Naim

I envy you CDS2/52/500/NBLs (or DBLs) owners!!!!

Stefano.

PS my system is getting warm again and the sound is improving

The general rule is: Don't listen till you can afford it.

If what you listened at Salisbury were, for example, CDX,102/hicap/250, Credos, it's not too bad then. But CDS2,52/500/DBL , whoaaaaa ...I think it's about time you recap the wallet, enhancing its capability to attract and hold more money . Ask people like Joel, Cliff, Jawed etc for the secret recipe.

Jauhar

A month later, I went to a Systemdeck IIx a Mission Cyrus One and a pair of Mission 70MK2 speakers. Over the years I have swallowed the Naim upgrade philosophy hook-line and sinker and eventually ended up at CDS1/82/135s/Isobariks. I recently did some tests with an old £200 Sansui CD player on some supports versus a CDS on fewer supports and felt that yes there were differences, yes the CDS1 was a better player, but it wasn't that huge a deal to me. Sonically it wasn't a massive difference to me actually... Yep, the soundstage was a bit smaller, yep the whole thing was a little less involving -- but in retrospect it was not orders of magnitude I was expecting when I bought the CDS and the money involved in getting there was stupidly expensive... and such lustings impacted on the quality of my life in ways I do not want to go into here. This CDS was restored completely by Naim 3 months ago so I reckon it was in tip top shape when I compared it to the Sansui.

Now of course some of the people here are going to say "heresy"; but I found that supposedly "lower-end" gear can sound very good indeed. In fact, I can listen to a well set up Naim system and enjoy it every bit as much as a "superleague" system (and maybe more-so because of it). While the "lower end" gear makes a smaller sound, the higher-end gear is *very* sensitive to setup issues, very sensitive to power requirements, it all needs maintaining, it needs a lot of money thrown at it to keep it in tip-top condition.

So I decided to go back to basics and see if you can build a system that is satisfying as a superleague system, but using supposedly lesser components... a lot of people say you cannot go back -- well they are WRONG... Without mods and special messing about, I can take and make a stock "less expensive" Naim system sing like a nightingale (I have gone back from an 82 to a 72, and if I can I will go back to a 32.5), because £ for $, my belief is that fundamentally the performance of these supposedly lesser systems is higher than the top-end. While I loved the CDS as the most natural sounding CD player made, the difference between that and a decade old £200 player wasn't enough to make a huge deal to me. Faced with that sort of difference I examined the whole Naim upgrade ethos and found it (for me) to yield less and less satisfaction at each step up -- "oh well" I'd think "maybe if I go to a 52, maybe if I get NAP500s, maybe if I get DBLs..." etc)

Don't take this the wrong way, but the Naim upgrade thing that many here seem to strive for isn't all it's cut out to be. Of course one's gear sounds better the "higher up" the chain you go, but I reckon a law of diminishing returns comes into play and I found myself paying more money on these "better boxes" for what feels (to me) like incrementally smaller upgrades. I have, after all, heard a NAIT 1 sound completely involving and if a NAIT 1 can do that then I want to explore the other possibilities of similarly less expensive hardware -- and *that* is a very sobering throught when you've spent well in excess of £10,000 on your Hi Fi and had to leave things out of your life in order to get it.

I wouldn't say all this without some hints and tips for you. A few things to bear in mind is that you can help what you have a lot with quality supports (one brand in particular makes a big improvement). Indeed, my finding is that less expensive kit tends to benefit more from such supports than the higher-end kit, but also stuff like soft furnishings help, as do drapes, curtains, plants, some nice lighting, believe you me it all goes towards helping the system you already have. No "lower end" system will completely overtake a high-end system, but agonizing over the unattainable high-end and spending gobs of cash on Naim is only one solution to a myriad of other solutions which is, ultimately, to make the very best of what you have.

I've stepped back from what I regard is an "addiction", an unhealthy Naim upgrade "insanity" (perhaps to pursue a different kind of insanity where I consider that a Sansui is almost as good as a CDS1). You guys are lovely and I missed being away, but the harsh reality for me is that after all these years, the Naim upgrade path is not satisfying to me when the word "value for money" is applied. I am sure many of you will disagree and that is fine -- your opinions are as valid as mine in every case -- but I found the differences between (say) a NAC82 and a 32.5 are to me to be so small as to be not worth worrying about -- when a good support is put into the equation.

As many of you know, I've sold almost all of my Naim hardware and got cheaper kit, invested in more supports that work and do I miss the difference? Do I hell... and because of it I feel like I am no longer slaving after an unattainable goal through "better boxes". I have somehow reached a state whare I am much happier and a lot more satisfied -- extracting every last nuance from my hardware through means other than "better boxes" -- with apparently a lot less cash involved. Indeed, selling my Naim hardware has funded a brand new Esse Range Cooker (still deciding on the colour -- I vote for British Racing Green), new plumbing, new electrics (plus a dedicated spur), a new living room floor and having my stables rebuilt -- all of which I could afford, but "selling up" makes it a lot easier to acheive in one go...

I have rediscovered the FUN in music with this cheaper kit... and I am back again, listening to music for hours on end, not thinking about the next upgrade, but being thankful that for me, at least, the madness is over and I can see the "upgrade game" for what it is -- a very shrewd marketing move.

Enjoy the music.

tf

[This message was edited by tf on FRIDAY 01 September 2000 at 08:24.]

ps don't you also sell your electronics to people, may be your post is just a shrewd marketing move, again....

[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on FRIDAY 01 September 2000 at 09:00.]

I got the Hi-Fi upgrade bug bad about 8 years ago and built a pretty expensive system in the lounge (Theta CD, 82, 2*hicap, BKS speakers). When I stopped buying Hi-Fi I advised friends that it was worth spending about £3K on a CD-only system and that would provide as much much musical enjoyment as my more expensive system.

Then I got the cooking bug, and started to build a kitchen system. I bought a Rega Planet, 2nd hand 72 / hicap / 140, and Dali Royal Meneut speakers. Total outlay about £2K.

I found that although the lounge system sounded much more impressive I actually enjoyed the music more in the kitchen.

I then got reinfected with the Hi-Fi bug, and started on the lounge system because I found I just was not enjoying it. I bought a 52 - great improvement but still not enjoying the music. Then prompted by listening to a friends set up on Mana I put loads of Nordost Pulsar points in the system and the enjoyment suddenly reappeared! I now listen to the lounge system a lot and enjoy it as much as the kithen system.

Now the kitchen system is acoustically isolated from the speakers, being in a differenet room - I wonder how much this is to do with my enjoyment of it.

My main focus is now back where it should be ... on the music. I don't worry about my equipment. I have splashed out on a CDS1 for the kitchen (a ludicrous extravangance, but it was such a good buy) and it has made me enjoy the music more ... was it worth it ... not really 'cos I was already enjoying great music, but I am lucky to have the dosh to treat myself.

I think you raise some important points which I agree with. I think supports have played a disproportinatly large part in my enjoyment of music. I also think my Hi-FI enthusiasm has been unhealthy at times and for me a step back rekindled my pleasure in music.

Thanks for your contribution.

Nic P

Excellent point Nic, we are for ever reminding people. Focus on the music. The some times obsessions with bit and bobs can be of interest to the hobbyist but if you step back to where it all started, use the hifi as intended, the music is so satisfying.

If so, then there is the old remedy of listening to a portable cassette deck for a month and returning to your system afterwards.

Alternatively have 2 systems, for example:

1) CDS2/52/135/SBLs
2) CD3/32.5/HiCAP/110/Royd Minstrels

...and alternate between them. Anyone do this?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Its nice to note that a 72 can do the business every bit as well as an 82 for... Cue Vuk's theory about 72 owners being... "strange" :-)

You have a CDS in the kitchen. My oh my! We just turn up the amp in the other room and let the Isobariks deal...

FWIW I have had the cooking bug for several years and now the expensive Naim gear has been sold, I have a lovely new Esse Range Cooker commissioned. Still got good sounds, but good food too and gobs of hot water up here in the grim frozen north - I don't pity Naim addicts, I pity my waistline!

--

quote:

---

If so, then there is the old remedy of listening to a portable cassette deck for a month and returning to your system afterwards.

---

I don't have two good systems to move between, but I frequently use my portable MD, and my wifes midi (the only CD player in the house until my CD5 arrives).

The MD is pretty good for music on the move, but listening to a CD on the midi then going to play some vinyl on the LP12 really makes you appreciate how good the Naim/Linn system really is, and I'm not even in 52/SBL land yet either.

Simon

quote:

---

Alternatively have 2 systems, for example:

1) CDS2/52/135/SBLs
2) CD3/32.5/HiCAP/110/Royd Minstrels

...and alternate between them. Anyone do this?

---

When I had the Rega Planet in the kitchen this is exactly what I was doing (£6K CD in the lounge and £500 in the kitchen, 52/250 in the lounge and 72/140 in the kitchen) and I got as much (sometimes more) musical pleasure from the cheaper system.

Nic P

Peter Belt would probably say that there was less in the way of electromagnetic flux in your kitchen...

Which reminds me.... was Peter Belt the Feng Shui expert of the hi-fi scene? ;-)))))

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

I have been following your moves on the other forum, but have not posted there. At the end of the day it is your music in your life. Only you know what system will float your boat.

About 8 years ago I owned the top passive Naim system with SBL's. The system was like a double edged sword and would either sing or shriek at me. I ended up selling the amps & speakers & going over to Bryston & PMC speakers.

This I was happy with until I moved house a couple of years ago & the amps & speakers were just non starters in our new home.

To cut a 2 year tale short I ended up with 32.5 ( 72 boards) Hicap, SNAXO, Hicap 2 x 250 & IBL's. I know a lot of members will raise an eyebrow at this combination, but it works for me.

I am sure the consistency I now get from this system is down to better set up & mains supply. I use a number of manufacturers stands including some Mana. The black SNAIC's are a _big_ improvement. I also use Music Works 6 way block & leads.

My CD is a Roksan CD1.5, DAC1 & PSU. I used to use a CDI but much prefer the Roksan.

I think for me the system has gone as far as I would like for now. I can't afford any thing else at the moment, & I'm not sure I want to risk loosing the consistency I am getting at the moment.

All I ever wanted from my system was that it would perform well _&_ consistently. For me I now own that system & I am very happy with it.

I respect what you have done, & good luck. I hope you also agree that a good dealer should recommend & install systems that are increasingly more satisfying , the greater the financial investment.

Bob

( OK, would like a Supercap one day!

[This message was edited by bob atherton on FRIDAY 01 September 2000 at 13:06.]

My system at home is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbions, while my system at work is CambridgeD500/32.5/SNAPS2/110/RoydMerlin. Both are enjoyable, but the one at home shines that much brighter. It sounds bigger, times better, and gets me closer to the music.

It's also much more engaging, so it's a good thing it's not in my office: I wouldn't get anything done. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

As Paul pointed out, my system is not 'absolutely' unlistenable. Put it simply, it was literally destroyed by the big one, that's all. Now I'm enjoying my system again, but I think I'll carry forever in my brain the emotion caused by such a listening experience.

TF, I agree that a bad setup, as well as a bad room or a poor mains may affect the sound of the most expensive system.
Feels like drinking Krug champagne while eating sausages with mustard: you can't appreciate it, even if it is a high class champagne.

The point is that (generally) high quality means high price. Depending on priorities and funds, everyone has to choose the quality of a product (and the price) which fits best.

Moreover, everyone has his own personal taste (for women, food, hifi....).
'If it sounds good, the it is good', JV said, no need to comment any further.
Nothing strange that you don't mind a well-setup 72 or 32.5 against an 82. It's your ears - It's your money. In the same way, personally I don't find a CDX cost-effective compared to a CD5.
But I do find a CDS2 cost-effective compared to a CDX!!

About having a secondary system... I have my old Nait2 in a box waiting for my 3.5 (when I upgrade source) and a s/h pair of speakers (maybe kans?). When I have finished building and furnishing my new house I'll put the main one in the lounge and the nait-based one in my bedroom... but if I could, I'd put CDS2/52/500/DBLs in the lounge and CDS2/52/500/NBLs in the bedroom (yes, I consider too much luxury the 3*500 pack ).

Stefano

quote:

---

As many of you know, I've sold almost all of my Naim hardware and got cheaper kit, invested in more supports that work and do I miss the difference? Do I hell... and because of it I feel like I am no longer slaving after an unattainable goal through "better boxes".

---

Are you now simply slaving after another unattainable goal through better stands?

For me the whole thing is about synergy - some systems just work, and some fundamentally do not. A great "mid-fi" system such as a LP12 / 32.5/110 / Kans truly kicks ass, and can embarrass all but the very best hi-fi regardless of cost.

I site my old Xerxes / RB300 / 62 / Hicap / 140 / Kan II system as an example - it just worked so damn well that I did not think about upgrading for ten years, and then I f*cked up the synergy when I threw some money at it two years ago - after a crazy couple of years I finally have the synergy back, and can probably run it happily for another decade!

I would also say around half of the hi-fi systems I have heard are not giving over 50% of their potential due to set up issues, and I'm talking about the cheap and free stuff here like not using naff plug boards, poor speaker position etc. This is before you even get to the stands!

Tony.

Like Tony L I ran a modest system (with Nait 1 and Kan's) which provided years of pleasure and sounded great in every room it was placed in especially when mounted on a 3 level (I like to call it phase 3) Debenhams drinks trolly with the castors removed and which was fabricated from black anodised steel much like another well known hi-fi support system. I purchased it for £8.99 when working there as a student one Summer!

When I did eventually significantly upgrade boxes and supports I then struggled to achieve the same level of music satisfaction - it's taken a Hicap on the 102 to really make my SBL's sing. Prior to that the system just didn't seem nice to listen to and could be strident, raw and fatigueing.

Good luck to Tanais - I think it's a brave thing to do but if collective wisdom wasn't questioned we would all still believe the earth was flat!

Jonathan

[This message was edited by Jonathan Gorse on FRIDAY 01 September 2000 at 15:21.]

quote:

---

I think it's a brave thing to do but if collected wisdom wasn't questioned we would all still believe the earth was flat!

---

The earth is flat. Leave all this round earth nonsense for the Americans and their fictitious space program and false space pictures.

Tony.

Oh, and you don't need the Mana to enjoy music.

Trusssst me.

- GregB
Possessions are not the problem, our relationship with them is

I listen to music in a very different way in my kitchen (compared with the lounge). I sometimes sing along, I sometimes dance (thank goodness no one can see me), I chop in time to the beat (doesn't blood make a mess of T-shirts). In the lounge I listen to music, not enough foot stomping, too much analysing the way it sounds.

I think Tanais has done us a favour by highlighting that Hi-Fi'itis can be a nasty condition, causing serious damage to the enjoyment of music and a wasting disease in the wallet.

Rock on tf,

Nic P

Vuk.