I have had a pair of AVI Bigga-Trons on the end of my Naim/Linn for a few months now but have only recently turned their location into a proper listening room ( it had become a sort of dumping ground). The fireplace has been knocked out, an arch built and the equipment all set up properly. The problem is I have'nt felt the speakers delivered in the same way they did in the demo room, the only way I can describe it is the music seemed contaminated or coloured in some way, messy would be another way of describing it. I recently added a Hi-Cap which improved the level of detail but did'nt really tidy the sound up enough. I was fed up with moving the speakers a few inches this way and a few that hoping to find the "sweet spot", so with nothing to lose I bought 2 paving slabs and placed the speakers on top (they sit on bloody heavy Target stands/ Pulsar Point feet) and I have to say that the improvement is as much as I got adding the Hi-Cap.(a reflection of how bad the floor was) The equipment rack sits on a concrete base where the fireplace was but the speakers are on a suspended wooden floor.
Anyway I'm going to start distributing my "Mani Sound Bases' as I've decided to call them in the near future for £175 pair. In all seriousness if I had got this improvement after spending £200 on something I wouldnt have been disappointed. Just goes to show you that... , well , I don't know ,...but it shows you something. Ah, that's it, start with the cheapest tweak and move upwards!

Ade

Talking about cheap tweeks, I have been informed that attaching the floor boards to the joists with screws can do wonders. I intend to try this and the slab option with my SBLs.

Let you know what happens!

I have never tried Pulsar Points with Biggatrons. Are you sure they work? We only ever use blutack under the Biggatrons and the sound is anything but messy. Try them without...

Regards,
Frank.

Thanks Frank,
My Biggatrons are sitting on blu-tak on the top of the stands. The Pulsar Points have replaced the spikes on the base of the stand. I knew from the original demo that they should'nt sound messy, that's why I kept experimenting, but the problem was obviously with my floor, not the speakers. They sound fine now.
I've also got a set of them (PP's) under my CDX, and they do a good job, but then I've only got a very modest rack. I'm sure if I got a Hutter, Mana etc under it I would,nt need them, but that would also cost considerably more than £50.

A good rack is the next step, but room layout means I need at least a five tier (preferably six, for adding an XPS) rack to put everything except my LP12 on (that's on a wall shelf above the rack), but also I want a "fit and forget" rack, so I don't think Mana is an option, everything has to fit in the space under the LP12 so all those "phases" are'nt an option, and I would then feel I was missing out.

This new Isoblue stuff seems interesting, if for no other reason than cost, and recent posts seem positive and there's also a dealer in Brum.

This forum usually has an answer for everything, but equipment supports, well that's another matter!

Ade

Ade,

I recently found when I took the carpets up on my floor that the floorboards are a long way from being ideal - old and spongey would probably be the best description. As a trial (based on seeing this on several set-ups), I bought a couple of the heaviest paving slabs I could find, and put my speakers (Wilson Benesch Actors) on top. Undoubtedly this was a more stable than previous. However, in my situation, I found the slabs to totally ruin the sound, the most grievous fault was that the bass seemed to lose all subtlety in favour of more slam. As ever, you have to try all these things yourself and see what works for you.

David

Hi Ade,
I would suggest trying Quadraspire tables. They look neat (pleases the wife) & sound great. Replace a 5 tier Mana with one. Sounds better.

Lerxst

Hi Lerxst(Lerxxst?),

Quadraspire is another option, but the impression I get from various posts is it always seems to come out worst in the Mana/Hutter/QS etc comparisons (and look like 1970's coffee tables, but then one of the most highly rated alternatives look like oil rigs) Having said that, it's the only one I'm likely to be able to dem at home as my mate at the dealer stocks them (Money-Back Guarantees notwithstanding), so compared to my budget rack it's bound to sound better.

When the time comes I might try to talk Griffin Audio into lending me the Isoblue as well so at least I can compare different makes.

I'm sure that in the view of some others you've done the unthinkable, replacing Mana with QS, so could you elaborate when you say it sounds better.

Ade

Ade,
Shock horror from the Mana folk? Yes, I think the QS stands "sound" better. I have an LP12, Ekos, Rega Bias, Nait 1, CDX, & Rega Kites & 3 tier QS table. I found the major failing of the Mana is a lack of ease with the music, I was always listening too hard for that "wonderful" sound. The QS (in this system) gives the music a flow rather than a slam. The Mana has awesome attack, everything stops and starts very quickly, but I found it to be tiring. The whole musical event was thrust at you rather than drawing you in. This may (& probably is) merely my own preference in music. Thats why we argue?
Lerxst (or Lerxxst, dependant on available email addresses)

Seems we've got yet another boybander here. He's obviously not heard Mana and just trolling with all the classic clichés. Just ignore him.

On second thought, maybe it's Non-Ferrous Larry, superdealer. If so, please accept my apologies and do educate us on what we should be hearing in those over-priced, under-performing, bass-muddling JMLab speakers.

Vuk.

QUOTE:

"Seems we've got yet another boybander here. He's obviously not heard Mana and just trolling with all the classic clichés. Just ignore him."

Vuk,

From what I can gather our friend with the QS previously used a 5 tier Mana stand. He has given his reasons why he changed to QS, he preferred the presentation of QS to Mana.

All this, IMHO, he put forward in a very eloquent manner.

This poor chap is now sentenced to a boy band & is accused of being a troll. He looks like a victim of the 'Vuk kangaroo court' to me.

FWIW I prefer Hutter to Mana for similar reasons to Lerxst, & yes I have lived with both.

Bob

I have just put foot square slabs of granite underneath my SBLs and have experienced an overall improvement in sound especially in the bass. This upgrade cost £18.

Seems like I've upset some "old timer" here.
Thanks for the support Bob.
Who is this Vuk I thought?
A quick search reveals over 500 posts in less than 6 months. He must be really knowledgeable!
All that time spent telling everyone what to do with their money, surprised he has time for listening.
And no I am NOT Larry.

Abe, just listen to all of them in the comfort of your own room if you can. Take your time with them since only then will the "ease" become apparent.

To clarify, for Vuks sake, I did have a 5 tier Mana, along with LP12, Lingo, Aro, Troika, 82/2xflatcaps/180 & SBLs. My first LP12 was purchased nearly 25 years ago, soon followed by the first of many Naims. I now have as my previous post states a far lesser system, which requires I get the best I can for the least outlay. Does this make me a "boybander"?

Lerxxst,

Vuk calls anyone a boy-bander who doesn't use their real name (including surname) on the forum, the idea being that member's of boybands are often known by nicknames or first names only.

Of course if Lerxxst *is* your real name then he owes you an apology.

In fact if sci-fi comics are anything to go by, the proper form of address for a anyone who's real name actually was 'Lerxxst' would be something along the lines of "Oh Mighty One..."

I hope you've got your raygun handy Vuk.

All the best,
David

Bob.

I accept that we all have different tastes in products, but when someone joins our forum, refuses to use a real name, subscribes through a hotmail-type e-mail address, provides nothing but sarcasm in his profile, then goes on to present the typical stereotype of Mana that people who haven't heard it seem to hold, can you blame me for thinking it's a troll?

At my place, Mana doesn't make things hard or accelerated, In fact, quite the opposite: it relaxes the music into a natural pace and one is drawn in by the luxurious textures/detail. I can't really imagine anyone not falling in love with what it does here, but I accept that maybe, as the result of my obsessive-compulsive personality, I've done a better-than-average job of setup or even, to some extent, that the effect could be room/floor dependent. I really don't think we should be having these Mana/Hutter feuds when the more important message is that people not using them are almost certainly hearing their hi-fi perform at less than half of its potential.

Vuk.

Lerxxst,

You stick to your Quadraspire Stands and don't let Vuk bully you around. As far as I know Vuk hasn't even heard the Quadraspire so his comments can only be taken with a pinch of salt. I've been doing a bit of stand evaluation myself recently and can certainly see where you are coming from in liking the Quadraspire.

You don't mention what mains block and leads you are using. If you are a follower of the Audio Councel school of setup, then the Quadraspire stands are generally used as an integral part of an overall setup philosophy that also includes the MusicWorks mains block and leads.

I've heard the QS/MusicWorks setup used with CDX based systems (typically CDX/102/180) on a number of occasions and I've always been extremely impressed with the results. I have absolutely no doubt that this kind of setup has serious music making abilities that would easily shame many much more expensive systems.

Allan

Hi Vuk,

OK, I will be the first to go along with using one's real name on this forum. That is one of the reasons why I don't think I will be posting on the 'other' forum in future.

I'm fairly sure that Lerxxst is not a proper name & I personally would appreciate some form of de cloaking in future. Lerxxst has only posted a handful of times here & maybe is not familiar with the house rules.

What I have a problem with, & I hate to say it is becoming increasingly more irritating for myself & others is a handful of Mana 'fundamentalists'. I personally place yourself on the fringe of this & not a hard core member, who seem hell bent on ramming their worshiped product down everyone's throat, whether or not an initial enquiry actually involved supports or not.

Mana is good, I've never disputed that, but it is not for everyone's taste. I have a good fried who tried some of my Mana at his home and found the effect too up front & in your face. In his opinion the Mana effect is just that , an effect, but not a musical benefit. I think he is now considering a more mellow approach with some
wooden stands, & no, they are not Hutter.

There are many good support systems out there. Hutter & Mana IMHO are two of the better ones, but there are others to suit different preferences in presentation and budget.

I am quite prepared to believe that Lerxxst once owned Mana & now prefers QS, fine, they are both good stands that go about the music making business in their own ways.

I personally do not believe that there is a Mana/Hutter feud. What I do believe is that a small minority of Mana users are totally blinkered to the possibility that another make of support might be suitable for another person.

I will be out of circulation for a few days, so nothing personal if I don't contribute to the forum for a while.

Seasons greetings,

Bo

Bob.

I agree with what you've said about different tastes--in fact, I started off my last message with something to that effect. What I have difficulty with are claims about products that do not at all match what I am hearing. This business about Mana sounding hard, forward or unrelenting is not at all what I have experienced and I am genuinely curious about what is causing such impressions in others. In my system, if Mana made things any more laid back and pretty, we would be entering round-earth,slop-monster territory fairly quickly. Given my problems with the CD player, the last thing I want is a harder or more forward sound. I have no explanation for why some are hearing this, although the obvious one about improper setup seems in line with their observations.

One more thing, this business about a metal and glass stand sounding hard as the result of these being physically hard materials is completely outrageous and the type of analysis I would expect from a 6 year-old (well, apart from Mr. Pig's children). Even with a more sophisticated formulation that relies on the sound these materials make, the logic would dictate that an LP12 sounds zingy and nasty, just the way its steel platter rings. The prejudice is further fed by the fact that shite glass and metal stands like Soundstyle do happen to sound very much the way they ring. Their designers were probably never educated in the principles of Judo, although it's diffult to conjure how a Hell's Angels apprenticeship would teach one the subtleties of using your enemy's energy to your advantage.

BTW--my friend I heard some Hutter racks yesterday and says they made the music sound knotted, thwaky, woody, soft and splintered.

Verxxxsk.

**********************************************
I have no explanation for why some are hearing this, although the obvious one about improper setup seems in line with their observations.
**********************************************

Vuk

Perhaps it's because others are listening with THEIR ears and you are listening with yours. I've heard stuff (ok..at shows) that has driven me out of a room it was so bad. Yet there have been people sitting there with big grins on their faces because they like it. What you find to be very good someone else may easily find 'hard' and 'upfront'.

Brian

Brian.

You boybanders do stick together

I understand what you are saying, but it's not as if we've got an Audio Research user hearing things in a radically different way from a Naim user. Usually, when there is disagreement here about matters such as forward or hard, the debate is along the lines of one person liking it mushy, the other saying it's more realistic. Here we have completely opposite impressions (boybander says it's hard, I say it's relaxed) and it makes no sense. The simpler interpretations are: 1) troll, 2) bad setup.

Vuk.

Vuk--

Or it might just be that his perception of the sound is different from other folks. An audiologist friend of mine says there is more difference in hearing from one person to another than from Naim to Krell or Hutter to Mana. Food for thought.

Che ers,

Bob @ Qwest¸