Apart from a recent Hi-Cap, I've managed to enjoy my music without upgrades for a while - thanks to the lovely 72/140 combination. I've heard a pair of ES11's that sounded remarkable (I have Castle Eden's right now) - any other thoughts on these speakers used with Naim? Obviously I'll demo a used pair, but all info greatly appreciated.

I believe that Epos' 1st speakers (ES14) were developed using Naim amps so there should be good synergy between their stuff and Naim

Phil

I had a pair of these on loan before I bought my Linn Kans.

The Epos speakers always received excellent reviews, from people whose opinions I trust (and who use Naim kit almost exclusively), but the ES11's didn't work within my home environment, highlighting the necessity to try them at home.

The ES11's needed to be so far into the room to prevent overblown, boomy bass (and I never got them sounding satisfactory, rythmically), that I returned them and tried Kans - I've never looked back as they work superbly close to a room boundary.

Try them and see, but if you have a small listening environment they may not work.

As an aside JV commented in the old forum about the technique used by Epos of using the drivers to produce the primary crossover rolloff, as opposed to a more complex crossover, and wider bandwidth drivers used by many other manufacturers (including Naim). Implicit in his comments were that he felt this to be a less than ideal way to design a speaker, but refer to paragraph 2 above and try them and see!

Andy.

Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com

I have also considered the Kans many times, and having heard them in the context of my system I found them to my liking. It's the speed compared to my Eden's that I like. Although the Eden's are good for the money, they seem to lack something in realism. Difficult to put my finger on, but they worked well with my Audiolab amps, but have left me a bit disappointed when used with the Naims.
The more speakers I try, the worse it gets! And I keep going back to Kans. Dunno why I'm dithering about it - I think my mind is made up.

Geoff,

I'm with Andrew. I had a pair of ES11's up until recently (had Kan 1's before), which I sold because they just didn't get me THERE. In my small (13'x13') room the bass just wasn't right (loose, one note, etc.).

I have a pair of Kan 2's, which, when set up right have an ability to sound extraordinary. They are a lot smoother than the Kan 1's.

If you like Linn speakers, how about a pair of Saras? I have a pair and they also are a great speaker. Maybe not as quite fast or detailed as the Kans, but they have solid solid bass and sound very musical.

I definitely prefer both Linn speakers to the ES11's in my room.

I seem to be disagreeing again (ho-hum) - I like Epos speakers!

Quote:

"As an aside JV commented in the old forum about the technique used by Epos of using the drivers to produce the primary crossover rolloff, as opposed to a more complex crossover, and wider bandwidth drivers used by many other manufacturers (including Naim). Implicit in his comments were that he felt this to be a less than ideal way to design a speaker"

I read this too. My interpretation of what he was saying was that if you intended to go active, that type of design was not conducive to giving the best results.

I have Epos ES15's which seem to be ES12's in a bigger box. They work very well and outperformed Linn Keilidhs (sp?) when I compared them. I have only heard Kans once and although it was at a dealers they must have got something very wrong because they sounded awful - strangled the sound.

Garry

I had ES11s for about 9 years, and liked them. I agree that they can need to be a fair way out to avoid bass boom, but this depends on your room. Only way to know is to try them out. I had them only 30cm from the wall in my current house.

One problem may be availability of spares. The real Epos went bust, and they're now owned by Creek. The later, similar looking, ES12 drivers are apparently different from the ES11's. The ES12 itself is a like the ES11, but with a brighter tonal balance.

Trevor

I've always had a soft spot for the ES11s .. many years ago heard some jazz on them and thought "I could live with them"..

Epos speakers have an ability to combine "flat earth" and "round-earth" qualities together - natural, revealing, expressive, musically communicative, tight, rhythmic drive. But they are demanding to place and partner.

I auditioned ES11s on a Nait3 when I was working overseas, and while nicely detailed thought the combo was a bit polite. Epos used the 250 as their reference amplifier, preferably biamped or triamped. They benefit from grip and drive. Its illusory to think of them as "a small box", they really are a compact monitor and need to be partnered as such.

They MUST be used with their dedicated stands, and are quite room critical in placement. Easily compromised. Need EXACTLY the right distance from the back wall, both the same (within mm), and don't like sidewalls either .. not the greatest "small room" loudspeaker. You have to be prepared to organise AROUND THEM. Can show up "things not right" very easily. But in the right careful setup can sound magical.

I finally auditioned 11s vs 22s and went for 22s - they had sense of scale and effortless, whereas the 11s ultimately couldn't escape being a small box (this was on the 180). Since then gone from cd3/72/hicap/180 to cds2/82/scap/135s. The 135s most recently, and as big as any of the other steps. Really opened up and brought the 22s alive. Brilliant amps. The 22s just get better and better the more you can feed into them, the same applies to the 11s too (a 22 is basically like an 11/12 on top of an extra low-end driver/box below 200hz). Together the 22s/135s show up the 82....

On the 180 and even the 135s I found the 22s really sensitive to cleanliness of speaker cable connectors. needed reseating/polishing with paper every couple of weeks to stay "on song". ANY loss of information or control and they'll go mellow and slow and sound very ordinary.

Its REALLY good you've got a hicap for the 72/140. The extra sense of depth and timing and musical information and "apparent power" a hicap brings a 72 will help give the ES11s some boogie factor. Otherwise they would be pretty, but bland.

I wouldn't normally recommend this as a next step, but with ES11s I think you should be aiming to partner them with a 2nd-hand 250 to hear them the way they are intended to work... its not just about power, its about tightness of grip, low-end control, extension and expressiveness. If you don't feel this is in line with your direction, then an "easier" speaker might be a better choice.

There are other speakers that are easier to partner on smaller amps .. I've also had a soft spot for Royd Minstrels that seem to work really well musically in 72/140 level systems.... probably the kind of thing I would fall back to (and be very happy with) if I had to.

Am I the only heathen here to like both ES11's and Kans? Hell, I even have a pair of each!

The top-end of the ES11 is eminently suited to jazz, has much greater delicacy on (say) the brushes, but still gives you energy on a crash. 250's grip them well (they were designed on a 250), but they can be at home on a 140 (as long as there's a hicap), or even a Nait. They need space from the rear wall, and the must must Must have genuine Epos stands. The bass is a little slow in balance with the rest of the speaker system; they still display amazing speed for a Ported design (you will by now be subscribing to the "all ported speakers are the work of the devil" school of thought, sir?). Compared to the awesome speed of Kans, well.... not much does, but they do trade it for some bottom-end reinforcement, which some systems or listener's tastes demand. Work well outside of the cramped brick-construction cottages found in the UK; if you're camped-out in one of these, Kans would likely be much more appropriate, if you like a certain degree of enthusiasm along with your timing information. Have heard Prodigy sounding particularly fine on ES11's.

Next to Credos they sound a little polite in the rythmn section... but there are other parts to the sound where the ES11's excel. I made a mental note when first hearing Dynaudio 1.3's that these were speakers something along the lines of the ES11's, only without the music, or the integration. I realise this may be a contentious statement for you lovers of danish wildlife, and will defer to your greater exposure of these exotic transducers (I am a comparative neophyte to them). ES11's - not for everybody, but a darn fine speaker nonetheless.

PS - don't be tempted to take them apart, unless you're masochistic enough to whip up a quick Tape Solution DIN interconnect out of ARO cable, before tea as a zen excersise; then maybe align a cartridge by eye, just for fun. They can be a real bitch inside.

Rico - musichead

Wow! My very first posting onto this Forum has led to some detailed response. I shall no doubt be demoing this weekend - when I should be Christmas Shopping instead! Oh well, this love of music is a deadly drug!

Thanks - I'll keep you 'posted' on how I decide to go.

I currently use Kan 2's and think that they have some pretty remarkable qualities. I bought them recently after receiving lots of recommendations from the forum - thanks folks!

I also have the Epos ES14 and have used 11's briefly some years ago.

All Epos speakers prefer some space around them but you can lessen this requirement by using foam bungs in the ports, which is how I prefer then anyway.

I bought original 14's way back in 1987 ( I think) and was addicted to them, simply couldn't get enough. These were the very first 14, without the phase cone on the bass driver and used HD chipboard instead of (inferior) MDF.

When I saw a mint walnut pair of recent 14's in Loot about 6 months ago I had to have them. We drove from London to Sheffield to collect them, even though the price was a little high at £300 with stands.

They are good, very good in fact but they havn't restored the magic I enjoyed the the originals.
I believe that the later versions of the 14 were not quite as good as the original, but the main problem is that my room (12x14)is simply not large enough to let them open up.

Next year, bank manager permitting, I'm knocking down a wall which will give me 12x28 - much healthier for larger speakers.

Oddly enough I think that the larger 14 is more room friendly than the smaller 11 and its also a better speaker.
If you really want an Epos my advice would be to look for the 14. The price is pretty similar on the used market as the 14 is older.

Any 14 (or 11) users interested in some reversable mods to make your speakers sound tighter and more room freindly can email me for details.

Rob.

I don't have any ES11s to try this with, but I can confirm that ES12s work better, and better with the better Naim Power Amps. You need a beefy Naim amp to control the Bass.

As for the treble, its a whole lot sweeter than (inter alia) Linn Kans.

Cliff
Trainee Perl Hacker