The purpose of this note is to solicit opinions as to the merits of the best preamplifiers currently available. Cost is only of secondary concern, but the unit should not be significantly more expensive than a 52 (which rules out Accuphase's C-290 V preamp, for that matter, as it retails for the humble sum of 12,750 pounds in the UK - how does it sound?).
As possible contenders I suggest the following preamps (listed in random order), but this list is certainly anything but complete.

The contenders (apart from the 52):

Nagra PL-P (6995 pounds)
Spectral DMC 12 (4500 pounds in UK)
Spectral DMC 20 Series (c. $7000?)
Mark Levinson 380 S (c. $6500): very good pre
Linn AV 5103 (c. 4500 pounds)
ATC SCA 2 (3300 pounds): excellent (I only had a very short listening session)
Lamm Industries, Inc. L1 (c. $7000)

Anything from Exposure, Pass Labs, Densen, Plinius, etc. that plays in that league?

Apart from the 52, the ML, and the ATC, I haven't heard any of the others, but you may have. All things being equal a fully balanced pre amp would probably have an edge in my case, as longer runs of interconnects can be driven more easily.

Any comments?

You should add the Ayre K-1x to the list. I only heard one once on demo and visceral impact impressive. About US$8,000, I think. Cheers. Dave.

A question like this just leaves me speechless.

Can you award negative stars in this forum? One star just seems way too generous!

I know were you’re coming from. It’s difficult to comment really. I’ve heard Three of the pre’s you mention (plus 52, of course) – BUT in other systems. i.e. Not head to head.

Your system, as described in your profile, is begging for a 52...
I am using 20 Feet interconnects, with no problem.(ARO cable) Feel free to come round and check it out. I’m using, just about, the same system – so it could be a useful dem.

Oh you need some M*na racks and stages of course ;-)

Cheers

mikeh

surely by now it is accepted that you can't pick a bit of kit in isolation.

There is no best pre-amp, only the one that you think sounds best in your system, in your home, with your recordings.
Malc

My dear Naim dealer from CA

I am glad to see that my question has finally caused some reaction. I hope it wasn't too much for you and that your loss of speech is but temporary, so we can get on in the analysis of the merits and flaws of the various preamps. Being a professional audio dealer you are evidently someone who has carefully listened to all the preamplifiers listed above, and certainly to many others as well. This careful listening and comparing on your part has no doubt put you in a superior position to mine, as I only had the opportunity to listen to a few of them. So please let me share your extensive knowledge in the field to help me make an informed decision.
I would be particularly interested in your assessment of the Nagra preamp (do you like its phonostage?). But perhaps the use of rechargable "D"-cell batteries might prove impractical on a daily basis? I don't know, pls. tell me. I quite liked the ATC preamp (it's balanced, and made to drive long runs of interconnects, but you know all that, anyway). Obviously, it would be particularly suited to my active ATCs. What do you think?
David mentioned an Ayre preamp. Could we also get a full report on that?
I am sure that there is plenty of interest on this forum in learning about brands other than naim. As you know them all, please forgive me in seizing this unique opportunity and calling upon you to provide deeper insight into the matter.
Many thanks in advance,

Florian
(currently listening to a 52)

Florian,

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage discussion of equipment other than Naim (after all, I own Exposure amps), but is this the best place for this particular discussion? Would Audio Asylum or rec.audio.opinion be more appropriate?

One thing which I think is common to a lot of the members of this forum is a healthy disrespect for the big names and big prices of a lot of the hi fi out there, including the terms used to evaluate it.

I think one of the shared values of members of this forum is a liking for equipment that communicates music above all else, rather than reducing equipment to a checklist of discrete criteria: e.g. soundstaging, imaging, tonality, deep bass etc. I'm not suggesting that these are the criteria which you are applying (or even that these are unimportant), but the items you've listed above and the suggestion of an "ultimate preamp" does sound a bit Stereophile-ish to me.

You mention Exposure in your initial post, and in terms of price it certainly isn't in the league of the other gear you mention. (I think the most expensive Exposure preamp is less than 1000 pounds.) In terms of ultimate neutrality, soundstaging, imaging etc it may not compare to the other preamps on your list. In terms of musical satisfaction, my Exposure 21 is the equal or better of any of them. When I sit down to listen to my Exposure-based system, I not only have no desire to hear something "better", I am positively convinced that I have achieved a sound that is as musically satisfying is it is possible to be, even though I know that in a technical sense it is not beyond criticism.

I guess the point I am making is that throwing a lot of money at a preamp will not necessarily get you more music, and I know from experience that the reverse is often true. It is hard to find something that you like the sound of - at any price - and if you do find it, hang on to it.

Ross

Florian-

You say you've listened to both the 52 and the ATC. Did you hear both in your system? If so, which sounded better? BTW how do you connect the 52 to the balanced input of the ATC speakers? Does it work O.K.? I think the real issue here is compatability with your speakers, that is, if you're committed to keeping them.

In my experience, the main requirement for driving long interconnects is low output impedence. This might disqualify the Nagra, which has its tube output stage directly coupled to the output connectors, without benefit of an output coupling transformer. One of the best tube preamps I have listened to at length is the Audio Note M-3, which has transformer outputs, and is even balanced! BTW it's easy to make a transformer output preamp balanced. (In this country, Audio Note has a somewhat ... er..., "flaky" reputation, but that might not be the case in the UK. Alas, its balnced outputs have some kind of funny small connectors, so you would have to get out your soldering iron to make up proper interconnect cables.

When I am looking at tube (or valve, as you say) preamps, I have several requirements:

1. Tube rectification
2. Transformer interstage coupling (instead of capacitors).
3. Transformer outputs: they're more transparent, have lower output impedence, and drive cables better.
4. Choke loaded or choke filtered power supply (although a battery supply might obviate the need for this).

Very few manufacturers of tube preamps go to these lengths. ARC, CJ, VAC, Sonic Frontiers, etc. all cheap out. Wavelength Audio is working on a Version 3 of their Sine preamp which should have all these requirements met. Check out their web site:

http://www.wavelengthaudio.com

Forget about Spectral - very thin and washed out sounding. Forget about Levinson - nicely built, I find it very boring. Ditto Krell, except that Krell adds a very noticable grain to their boring sound. Haven't heard the Ayre lately . Plinius is quite good, though not, IMO, in the Naim league. Haven't liked anything from Pass Labs (or Threshold, his previous company, for that matter).

So there you have it: if you're going for a tube job, get one that will really drive a long interconnect. Otherwise, I'd arrange for an extended, well-controlled shootout between the 52 and the ATC. Good luck!

[This message was edited by Peter Litwack on WEDNESDAY 20 December 2000 at 06:51.]

Peter,

quote:

---

1. Tube rectification
2. Transformer interstage coupling (instead of capacitors).
3. Transformer outputs: they're more transparent, have lower output impedence, and drive cables better.
4. Choke loaded or choke filtered power supply (although a battery supply might obviate the need for this).

---

been there, done that. When you want all that, you have to go DIY. I did. A good output transformer for line stage preamp costs as cheap as each 65 EURO+VAT (LL1660 from Lundahl/Sweden, they have a web site http://www.lundahl.se, and you can order by email and VISA card) or up to the double, if you go into the US parts manufacturers and distributors.

When doing "normal" markup calculation (that means, times ten), a pair of good output transformer costs 1500 USD to the end customer.

When you want transformer coupling, and you have phono, you have at least 6 pieces of output transformers.

You can even have passive RIAA networks with coils, from Tango/Japan, for 800 USD the pair.
Unfortunately, Tango ceased production of their hi-end transformer branch to the end of this year.

When you are into DIY for this, you have thousands of friends on the internet and thousands of pages with schematics and dozens of part suppliers.

One commercial tube preamp I know which has employed such expensive techniques is the Shindo Petrus, costing app. 40 000 DM in Germany.
http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp
Note that the Japanese pages contain more products and pics than the English pages.

regards,
Hartmut from Munich, Germany

PS: I have an 80ies flat earth Naim setup for the lounge and wife, 32.5+Snaps2, 101+Snaps, 140, Kan-Clones, VoydValdi+Helius+Asaka
(I cannot hold back the following remark: Women do love these half width minimalist design components !!)

PPS: In my main system, I have a transformer coupled 211 single ended power amp, total weight is 100 pounds, with two chassis (power supply, containing 6 power transformers, is separate), no coupling caps. Parts sum up to 1100 UKP/1500 USD, plus 50 hours work, with the help of many friends. It is playing into an Altec components hi-eff loudspeaker. Anglophiles could use old Tannoys.

Last word: both make music ...

Peter,

Thanks for your extended reply.

I have actually resolved the problem in a rather quick manner by buying a 52 a few days ago. Initially, I was slightly concerned about the 52's ability to drive long runs of interconnects (hence my request for opinions), but there seems to be absolutely no problem. Currently, I have two runs of interconnects from output 3 and 4 of the Supercap to the two XLR inputs of the ATCs (perhaps it's better to use just one output of the SC but I haven't had time yet to look further into this problem - my Naim dealer in London suggested to do it like this, I think he even checked with a technician at the Naim factory). There are also a few other guys here on the forum, and elsewhere, running a 52/SC/ATC combination (Hooch, Mike, and Jim, and JW of Mana, of course), and they all have no problem with long interconnects. Unfortunately, I could not listen to the ATC pre in my system, only at the London HiFi show, where the whole ATC setup sounded rather good!. I also liked the idea that the ATC pre was cheaper, balanced, and, after all, designed for driving active speakers, so it should have had a slight edge over the 52 from the start. I would still like to get to demo the ATC preamp at home but none of the ATC dealers in London seem to have one. Anyway, now this case is closed for me.

On another note, I was surprised by your rather negative assessment of the Spectral preamps. I have never listened to them but I read a raving review of the Spectral 12 preamp in HiHi+, and thought they might be well worth checking out. Are they really that bad? That would just be yet another proof of the utter uselessness of technical reviews. At least to some extent, HiFi reviews should give the reader an idea how the equipment compares with similarly priced equipment by other manufacturers (which is almost always avoided in such reviews).

The Nagra is just such a curiosity (at a rather phantastic price) that I couldn't resist including it. I'd still love to listen to it at some point (otherwise I have no interest in tube equipment, whatsoever).

Merry X-mas!

It will come as no great suprise that I have tried, used and even bought pre-amps that were not from Salisbury. Most were a disaster and had a far greater negative impact upon the reproduction than most poor power-amps. Someone here on this forum not-too-long ago said words to the effect 'The source may be the heart of the system, but the pre-amp is its soul'. Truer words are seldom spoke :-)

Years ago I borrowed several Spectral preamps from a dealer in Dallas who carried both Naim and Spectral. The DMC 10 Gamma (I think it was)was a very musical performer with great strengths in both the flat and the round earth arenas. Coupled to their model 50 power amp (circa 90 wpc) this combo when fronted by the usual LP12/Ittok made for a very taut, rhythmic and full-bodied sound- apparent through both the Isobariks and ESL63 we tried. A 32.5/Hicap/250 had an even 'snappier' presentation with more LF grunt and tune into the Isobariks. Into the ESL the Spectral gear had about the same degree of PR&T as the Naim, but in addition allowed the 3-D capabilities of the ELS speaker to fully bloom. Into my own speakers (the long since discontinued Artisan Palantirs) the Spectral amps were wonderful, and way beyond my budget. The Spectal pre-amp had an external power supply, about the size of a SNAPS but with considerably less heft. I wondered how much better yet it would be with a Hicap-sized equivalent, but of course this was just a thought-experiment, as Spectral never offered a higher-spec P/S.

A very talented friend of mine also builds in exceedingly small quantities preamps which can rival the qualities of some of the naim ones. In fact I replaced his pre-amp (with an external p/s larger than a Hicap)with the 82/Supercap and found the latter to offer only marginal gains over his creation.The power amps I was using at the time were a pair of Exposure XVI, which are certainly in the same tier as the 135s in performance. The 52 however is an entirely different story, and in an entirely different league. Nothing I have heard (including using no pre-amp at all) comes even remotely close.
Beautifully built, breathtakingly priced and dreadful sounding preamps can be found from the usual suspects, whose names need not be mentioned. I am yet to hear a good pre-amp that does not have a sizeable external power supply, which appears to exclude many if not most contenders. I know that the latest breed of Exposure pres have now eschewed the enormous outboard p/s that their earlier flagships had, but I have had the opportunity to audition neither. What I can say is that no *cap/*2 preamp coupled with any decent power amp is responsible for a bad sound, and in certain enviroments may stamp great authority on the final results. As I have probably said on the forum before it is the pre-amp line that truly distances naim from its competitors. I have attempted to get the 52 to make bad sounds by plugging in $120 CD players and then hooking into it very mundane power amps, and its strengths were always quite overt.

It may be more thought provoking to wage the battle over ultimate poweramps than ultimate preamps. Until the arrival of the NAP500, satisfying alternatives to the 135s as offering the best performance could be found in other stables. As indeed they still can, but the 500 is probably always better, and by quite some margin.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

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