Hi!
After playing around for more than four weeks with my equipment and speakers and really finding mistakes I'm done.

I had a professional come in and take a look at my setup since I was not satisfied with my system and felt that I should be at these costs. Results: acc. absorbers. OK, Problem solved.
Then I couldn't overhear that the center of the sound was on the right side and I couldn't stop myself from buying a NAC82 with Hicap. (Hicap will be added today after recaping). There was NO difference between 2xNAC112 and NAC82! Impossible! OK, I then found out that I did switch the channels on my bi-amping two days ago. Changed back. OK, THERE WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE! Of course I also switch the phases on one NAC A5 that where wrong... I did setup right, but it was wrong from the dealer. So after this big upgrade I took out the absorbers just to check. No difference with or without the absorbers! Just saved around 1200 Euros!

But, still after a listening session there it was again. Soundcenter to the right. I took out the second NAP150 since I thought there's something wrong with my NAPs. No difference but now I got a easy system to check where the problem is coming from.

And here's the final (?) problem or maybe it was the problem I started with. If I turn the balance to the left and the turn it to the right the difference is as if the right speaker would stay about 10 meters back. The right speaker sings and the left speaker just makes music.

Great! Here I am, a fool that bought everything accept the speakers s/h. ! I now will have a friend recheck my system and look if he comes to the same result. If yes, I'll talk to the dealer (the one that sold me the absorbers for the corner and one to put near the front of the right speaker, since he thought the right speaker would get to much reflection!) and return the absorbers and see what he's willing to do about the speakers. I'm glad I bought speakers from a swiss producer, since I could also visit them directly.

So, where's the question here?

Any ideas what I could have missed or what I could check?

Regards,

Adrian

P.S:..and I know I should have gone over a Naim dealer...

Moveo

If it is the speakers and one is not working like the other get your sound expert to bring along his dB meter and measure the output volume using pink noise with only one speaker connected, then the other.

Then switch the speakers over. If there is a significant volume difference it should shift with the speaker. If it does'nt itis the electronics.

He can also test the balance control one speaker at a time to see if the volume goes down at the same rate either side of center.

Of course it might be your ears!

Regards
GEOFF

The boring old fart

Poor Adrian,
I followed your story over the last weeks, and my "diagnosis" would be: Too many "upgrades" in two short time.

Follow what Geoff has suggested. Some additional comments from my side:

You know that I am a strong believer in room acoustic improvements, and my first impression was that they had a good effect on your room, also. Well...

Than this bi-amping thing for the sake of having two amps. Well... In your position, I'd start with a single amp (maybe test them against each other to see if one is "different" or worse or faulty or less loud or whatever, and chose one to go further with. Naim is not so much a bi-amping play ground.

Again: Keep it simple. Build from the bottom up. Identify and eliminate the faulty parts, if there are any. If you have "tuned in" to a system that you like, stay with it for a while. Listen to music (...). And then do little steps only. Get rid of the stuff you have bought and don't need any more.

Remember the "dream system" you were writing about ? Set that as a goal (I can only confirm that it's musically close to perfect...), and move there, slowly. And, keep asking "stupid" questions to this forum.

Gustav Käser (I think he was Swiss) said "Blamiere Dich täglich", which translates to "Make a fool out of yourself, every day !". Very right...

Best regards, freundliche Grüße

Stefan

Hallo Stefan!

Thanks for your kind words! Here's a BIG update for you... I still don't belive it myself!

What happend:

I installed the NAC82 without Hicap. Rest of the system CDX, NAT05, FC2 and 2xNAP150, NAC A5, Piega C8 Ltd.
The NAC82 was feed over the FC2. Turned on the music ... and .... NO DIFFERENCE!!!!I played around one night with the system. Found things out and again NO DIFFERENCE!! I took the NAC82 to a Naim dealer, had it checked. (4 hours drive) His answer, everything in perfect order. Nice s/h NAC82--> Thanks, Russ from Olympia!

Went back home and did the first time something right. I took out the second NAP150 since I thought well if it doesn't sound better I'll sell what I don't really need. Turned back on the music ... and .... there was a difference ... to the worse!! Ten second and I knew, out of phase!! To make it short, one of the NAC A5 was wrong, the dealer fixed the plugs the wrong way! Thats why the absorbers helped so much in the beginning! I moved the absorbers out. Glad I still don't have my own since they can't deliver in time. The absorbers IMO just make the musik sound different, for sure not better. It's also loosing punch.

I added the Hicap two days ago. Recapped. The difference was out of the box very nice!

The only problem left:

I'm listening at night very, very quite to musik. And the soundstage moves to the right! I know... not again... but its true. After fixing all the other problems it was pretty easy to find out why. Balance to the right music is fine, very quiet. At the same volume balance to the left and the music is gone. After another one hour of checking here are the results: It's not the CDX or the NAT05, its not the NAC82 and its not the NAP150. I did change all the equipment with the NAC112 and the second NAP150. It's again the NAC A5. I can reproduce this effect on both loudspeakers just by switching the cables at the NAP150. I'm glad I still own the second set of NAC A5, tonight I'll check that.

Ok, long message I know... BTW, this week the NAP250 should arrive and then the next upgrade is only going to be more CDs! No changing, just enjoying.

Adrian

quote:

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I'm listening at night very, very quite to musik. And the soundstage moves to the right! I know... not again... but its true. After fixing all the other problems it was pretty easy to find out why. Balance to the right music is fine, very quiet. At the same volume balance to the left and the music is gone.

---

I don't think this is a problem. I have this experience with the naim preamps.

You can listen to extremely quiet levels? I wish I had your ears.

Emil

Hi Emil

What do you mean? It's normal that one channel doesn't work at low level? Or normal that just one loudspeaker works at low levels?

Regards,

Adrian

I'm done. Can't find the problem. Checked the NAC A5 with a different cable. The same result. At a nice reading volume I can only listen to one speaker. The NAC82 was checked by the dealer with some kind of instruments. Is ist possible to mix up the snaics or anything that I get this kind of result??

Any help would be much appriciated.

Regards,

Adrian

Just to make sure, Adrian: The effect of muting a channel comes and goes with a NACA5 you can clearly identify ?

If that's the case, I'd not bother with this cable, any more, and exchange it. Make your dealer happy, and buy a third - "working" cable. Or try non NACA5 cable.

When you get your 250, the bi-amping thing will be over, right ? Maybe, that will solve it. Without explanation...

But, maybe I just misunderstood...

Best regards, freundliche Grüße

Stefan

quote:

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What do you mean? It's normal that one channel doesn't work at low level?

---

Yes, at extremely low level.

You can have balance off center, if there is something, which is not fully broken-in. I'm talking about the hi-cap. The second output of the hi-cap, where the second 150 takes signal, needs also time. Even new NACA5 plugs need time to break-in.

Your new 250 will show you, if the reason is the bi-amping. Naim doesn't recommend it.

Emil

[This message was edited by Emil F. on Fri 27 August 2004 at 9:40.]

I'm still not completely clear on the problem. Here's what it sounds like:at high volume, stereo and balance are fine - that is, each channel works and each speaker plays at the same volume.

But at low volumes, you hear output from only one speaker.

I had audible imbalance problems with an LP12 Akito, LP12 Ittok and same phono leads, LP12 ARO with different phono leads, a 62, 72, 2 different hicaps, a 140, a 250, biwired NACA4, and biwired NACA5. The balance was cured by an 82.

Potentiometers - as in volume and balance controls - aren't perfect. You don't know the provenance of your A5. Your electronics were used, and you probably don't know what problems were experienced by previous owners.

You know you have a problem diagnosing speakers wired out of phase. You know you've got an unorthodox setup (bi-amping with 150s and without an electronic crossover). And room acoustics can be causing the imbalance.

In other words, there are lots of variables here, and there are lots of potential culprits. How much time and effort are you going to spend tracking down the source(s) of the problem?

Look, if you adjust the balance control, can you hear both speakers equally at low volume? And does it sound good at that balance and volume? If the answers are yes & yes, why not just enjoy the music?

Also, try out single-wiring. My speakers prefer bi-wiring with several amps, but they sound better single-wired with a 140 and a 250.

Regards.

Phil