This posting will either earn me an Oprah Snappy for gushy self-disclosure (especially on the heals of my dealer thread, which I expected to read like a newspaper list of errata, yet elicited some rather embarrassing compliments) or a FEP brigade court-martial.

Before I got into high-end audio, I listened almost exclusively to classical music and, to be honest, I think I enjoyed it a lot more back in the days when I ran a Toshiba CDP into a Yamaha integrated driving Mission bookshelf speakers (which I did have on stands). Then bass envy set in and I celebrated my PhD by barging out to blow some gift money on a serious pair of speakers.

I'd heard the story before and my dealer reminded me of it again, but I would have none of this nonsense about source first. I pulled out Bruckner's 7th and had the dealer backtracking when the NHT 2.3i demolished everything else in the price range ($1350 CDN) and the only impression the big NAD vs. Yamaha CD player showdown left was a flushing of his face. "Well, maybe with very dynamic music like this..." he said, instead of simply playing a CDS for me. Oops, I forgot they never stocked a CDS. It took about 2 years to undo the damage. Trust your dealer, eh?

The next time I made my way to the shop, my business had been running successfully and I was ready to ditch the student lifestyle for good. New furniture, new stereo (Sony/Arcam/NHT at that point: one step forward, two steps back relative to the Yamaha/Mission setup). This time, I had the luck of being dragged into dem room 3 by a very cool staff member, who insisted on keeping out the owner (person described above). He made me listen to stuff way beyond what I intended on spending and made some serious impressions about sources and pre-amps in the process. I really wanted a CD3, but couldn't bring myself to spend 3 times what a Rega Planet was going for. You're going to love this, but what got to me the most when I brought the Rega home was that it was a CD player that could image!!! You see, I never forgot what my old plastic TT did.

I didn't take too long to plunge head first into Naim and, very early on in the process, this required getting rid of the NHTs which were now being offered bass in abundance and their double passive sub-woofers (in each cabinet!!!) made everything swim in a very thick soup. You'd think it would be easy to improve upon them, but the dems were numerous and painful. Finally, after a great deal of frustration, my source-first guru dragged out a hideous looking pair of things which, as I commented at the time, resembled something Jimi Hendrix would plug his guitar into. It was a pair of Tannoy System 12 Studio Monitors (12" dual-concentric) and I got my first lesson in dynamics. Being such a huge fan of big symphonic music and massive opera, this was in many ways a dangerous initiation. All of a sudden, the power and authority of the air these things moved gave me a Wagnerian contempt for conventional, domestic, sissy speakers (like ProAc). The 12s proved too huge, overpowering and ugly for my room, but I was soon rewarded when Tannoy released the System 800s.

I have had these speakers for about 3 years now and, until this weekend, everything else has failed to dethrone them (and I have tried over two dozen at home). To top it all off, the speaker that did it is relatively slow, polite and somewhat round-earthish: the Totem "Tabu" (pronounced "Taboo"). Pause here for people to run screaming to the bathroom.

Are you back now? Since I purchased the Tannoys, the music I listened to changed quite drastically. Classical started taking more and more of a back seat to various dance genres and I now think I understand why. If Joe Pellizzari is reading this, I suspect he is now worrying that I'm about to go into details of our premature mid-life crisis and the debauched, party-oriented social life which made speakers that could pound the rhythm into your bones highly prized. Although it's a tempting hypothesis, I'm far too much of a purist in these matters to be influenced by such banalities. I firmly believe it was the strengths of the speaker that dictated or influenced repertoire, rather than the other way around. I also fell into the trap of assuming that since Naim electronics wiped the floor with the competition mainly in terms of pace, dynamics and all-round excitement, that these were the most important criteria in judging performance. What I forgot was that Naim does the other stuff pretty well too and consequently neglected it in my speaker dems. Actually, perhaps it's better to say that I didn't come across a speaker that made other aspects more obvious and important to me.

If I had to single out what it was that I've been missing, I would say it was lyricism--I think some of you would call it tunefulness, others seem to use the words expressive, emotional or communicative to describe the effect, but I find these a little too broad. What I mean precisely is the ability to reproduce sequences of notes, including the notes themselves, well enough to convey well-shaped musical phrases. I suspect a lot of this has to do with tonal accuracy and some of it, though to a lesser extent, with relative timing. It is especially obvious in the bass frequencies, which seem to be the most difficult to deliver and control. I don't mean to start a debate on the merits of different genres, but my experience is that most pop music (especially dance), owing to its simplicity, doesn't really lose much with a bit of tonal sloppiness or lack of extension at the bottom. In classical music, it can completely destroy a critical or fundamental musical line and it doesn't appear to take very much to screw it all up!

I strongly suspect that Ross understands what I am talking about and I hope that he's still reading and will offer some insight and advice. A few weeks ago, he described the Beyer 990s as being dark and slow and a short time later revealed they had become his preferred headphones. I had come to expect silliness like this from Ross, but now I find myself with speakers that are dark and slow (not so much slow as lacking in the explosive dynamics of others) which I am on the verge of purchasing. It's incredibly tormenting, because the Tabus seem to show all that is wrong with my Tannoys, while the Tannoys show all that is wrong with the Tabus. In the end, it is the Totems that are easier to live with, but I am wondering if there is something out there at a reasonable price (Credo level) that is the miracle speaker I need.

Before you all jump in with your favourite, please consider the following. What I seem to have discovered in the Totems is a an ability to convey notes in a way that conveys both the beauty of their expression and adds to a convincing musical string. Some speakers pretend to do this, merely by making things sound pretty, either by adding colouration, like the entire B&W matrix line, throwing out a rich, bloated bass, like JMLabs, or a mixture of both: the strategy ProAc seem to have adopted. Other speakers bypass the need somewhat by what I'd describe as re-orchestration of the music for themselves: in effect, they tend to act as the instrument to varying degrees. Linn, Naim and Royd are the guilty parties here, although it becomes less and less of a problem as you move up the range and it's something one could live with if there wasn't a disruptive correlate: often, these speakers tend to get boxy and congested when faced with loud and complex orchestral passages (again, the problem goes away once you are in NBL territory). Does this make sense to anyone?

Back to you Ross. Even though I teased you for being a treacle-meister, I did know precisely what you were on about when complaining about the lack of tonal complexity in certain products. I just discarded it as being secondary and generally elusive: better do without than buy something that conveys it in a phony way. Seems I was possibly wrong. A month or so ago, you purchased a pair of Dynaudio contours and declared your system to be perfect. These Totems I've got also use Dynaudio drivers. Now, I see you've switched to AE1! What the hell happened? I seem to recall Frank and Matthew having squarely opposed opinions on these and I would appreciate their input as well (I've never heard them).

Thanks for suffering through this. I've had to write this much more quickly than I would have liked--I hope it's all clear enough for some of you to share any relevant experiences and offer advice.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on TUESDAY 12 December 2000 at 05:16.]

Vuk,

Why don't you use Naim speakers ?

Arie

Vuk;

As you have noticed, speakers (and a lot of other stuff) involve fewer compromises the higher up a particular range you go. The Manitoos are a stand-mounting Isobarik type from near the top of the Totem range, and have their devotees. Thing is, they're Canadian, which probably means that they occupy a different relative market sector there than they do here, which possibly makes them better value for money. I haven't heard them and they could be awful, but if you like parts of what the Tabus do, you may find they fit your needs.

Just a thought...

Best;

Mark

(I still don't like this
software very much)

That's the correct spelling
I have them. They are great, even at symphonic works, but are hungry for current (those paralleled Dynaudio drivers...)

I would guess they are better than the Tabus, try to arrange a demo if you can.

Igor

My, my, Vuk!

"most pop music(especially dance), owing to its simplicity, doesn't really lose much with a bit
of tonal sloppiness or lack of extension at the bottom. In classical music, it can completely destroy a critical or fundamental musical line and it doesn't appear to take very much to screw it all up!"

And weren't you telling me only a couple of days ago that you looked for the same things in Dance and Classical reproduction?

I would suggest you audition ATC or PMC speakers if they are in your price range. The latter are distributed in Canada by Bryston. BUt I really don't know what might float your boat.

Dozy

...Vuk, have you tried the Audio Physic line? I'm thinking of the Avanti in particular - having just borrowed a pair of Mk I Virgos for about 10 weeks, I am *extremely* sad to see them go - they had everything (except the deepest of bass; they go down to around 30Hz).

Just a suggestion. They aren't cheap, but they do things I've never heard a speaker in their price bracket do. But then, I admit that there are a *lot* of speakers I haven't heard yet...

>> Now, I see you've switched to AE1! What the hell happened? I seem to recall Frank and Matthew having squarely opposed opinions <<

No that was the AE109s -- I found them a disaster with Naim although ISTR Frank liked them.

The AE1s are a different kettle of fish altogether (super fast, large standmounter in something of a studio monitor stylee with the coolest stands ever). Something of a classic of its kind.

As to what speakers you should get -- I have no idea as you want a speaker that combines the virtues of two speakers I haven't heard and for one reason or another you haved ruled out all the speakers I like.

Matthew

Vuk,

I think that now with this new understanding you should listen (or re-listen) to some other speakers. I haven't heard Totem speakers, but if you really prefer the Tannoys on most dance/D&B etc music, then admit it, these are not the solution. It will only shift your musical taste the other way.

One speaker in particular is the Ars-Acoustica "Diva", a Canadian stand mount that is very very good. It has coherence and tonal truthfullnes, along with decent dynamics. I'm still thinking about it, I wish they had a bit more "clout", then they would be really perfect.
I've also heard good things about Coincident speakrs, which I will audition next week.

I hope Totem employ Dynaudio units better than Dynaudio do - the latter are slightly veiled and they eventually make everything sound the same. Maybe a bit (to a lesser extent, though) like Proacs.

Please note - I'm not saying you should only use Naim speakers- I understand your reservations, and I'm also a bit sold now on slightly laid-back speakers.

Omer.

Hi, Vuk

Have you tried Shahinians? I think they could be just what you are looking for.

pete

Oh wow... Just came from the shower washing off all that Round Earth shit...

Gee Vuk, talking about some amazing discoveries here eh?... Appreciate sharing it with us though!

You mentioned other candidates at 'Credo level'. I don't know how much they are in Canada but you might give the Totem Forest a good listen too. They are probably priced above the Credo's but a VERY nice speaker. The Forest is a modestly sized floorstander offering all the qualities of the Tabu (and Mani) monitors but with that little but important extension in the lower regions giving the music more authority and scale.

For me, the Forest is the only speaker up till now that comes closest to matching the sheer musicality and completeness of the higher priced Sonus Faber speakers. Right at the Credo level (at least here in Holland) is the relatively new Sonus Faber Signum. Gorgeous sounding and looking 2-way monitor. Beats the three Totems mentioned here hands down on imaging, staging and bringing out the smallest and most subtle musical nuances but doesn't offer the weight and authority of the Forest.

Last, (don't worry, I'll shut up) I mention the PMC FB1 again. Roughly at the Credo level too and just so incredibly fun to play music on!! Kinda hard to explain exactly why but they really are great. Judging the usual aspects of music reproduction in isolation the other speakers mentioned here perform better in one or two aspects. The strength of the FB1's lies in their total package (vs. their price). I simply love these things and they work very well with Naim ampification with a truly awesome, AWESOME bass!

To sum my votes up:

1. Sonus Faber Signum
2. Totem Forest (although more expensive)
3. PMC FB1

And yes, you're right. Naim is indeed 'quite good' at that Round Earth shit like imaging, staging, air and transparency. VERY good actually. Nice to discover that in your own gear or what??

Such a shame that Naims own speakers kill those qualities completely... (IMO !!!)

Richard

Vuk,

I am glad to be able to say "good post".

I second Mr. Mad Bad and dangerous to know 's suggestion to try some Shahinians but Credo level is too low as the absolute scale of starters is not enough for you, try (if you can) Compasses or better yet Arcs ar even better Obelisks.

Mind you I don't know of many people liking Shahinians and Mana ... but I don't want to go there!

Jason

[This message was edited by Jason Hector on TUESDAY 12 December 2000 at 14:21.]

Vuk,
Have you thought that maybe the Mana stands have had an influence in making your system sound as it does? With your description of the speakers you are after I would suggest a change to Quadraspire stands, they should give you what you want.
John

Music is the answer.

Hi Vuk: I am not going to suggest any speakers, this is the must subjective and personal area of all apart from the software...

My take on this (and based on my own experience and having eclectic musical tastes a little like your good self) is that maybe you need both the totems and the Tannoys, for different types of music. You suggested that equipment was in some way influencing what types of music you listen to... maybe now that you listen to the whole spectrum you need more than one set of speakers. I have the same dilemma, my current speakers ProAc Response One SC are a compromise albeit a respectable one, but I am more and more aware that they don't quite "do" classical, rock, jazz or whatever it is I happen to be listening to as well as I'd like. JM Lab Utopia series I hear are an all-rounder but at a very significant price. I too recently heard Totem speakers on the end of an Audio Note system at the Singapore HiFi expo and first impressions were very good.

Just a thought - cheers, Dave.

Vuk,

First, apologies for the lateness of my entry into this thread. Our server was down at the office, and I have just returned home from work (at 11.30pm).

I think I understand what you're going through. You've discovered that there is a dimension to music which your Tannoys aren't producing, and which is important to the enjoyment of the music. The difficult question is whether what the Tannoys do and what the Totems do are mutually exclusive - can you get speakers that have the best qualities of both the Tannoys and Totems?

I have no real wisdom to impart here, since I am as guilty as anyone of flitting from one speaker to another (in order: Krix Superbrix, Krix Lyrix, B&W P5, Sonus Faber Concerto, Sonus Faber Electa, Epos ES14, ProAc Tablette Signature, Dynaudio 1.3SE and now AE1s - and these are just the speakers I've owned; not to mention the much bigger list of speakers I've borrowed or demoed).

As you know, I believe that tonal qualities play an important part of the enjoyment of reproduced music (although this appears to vary from person to person), and it is quite possible that the Totems are producing this in a way that is having an impact on you for the first time. Having owned two pairs of speakers with Dynaudio drivers (the SF Electas and, of course, the 1.3SEs), it is certainly true that they are capable of producing tonal nuances which other types of speakers are less able to; Royd and (dare I say it) Naim speakers come to mind.

I think we tend to believe that there is a perfect speaker out there for each of us; really, there are only a series of more or less acceptable compromises. The trick is to find a set of compromises that you can live with for the long term. It may be that the Totems represent the best set of compromises for you.

I think you should also listen to the Dynaudio 1.3SEs or Mk IIs if you can; I have a suspicion you would like them, even though I ultimately came to dislike them. My preference is for a slightly forward, midrange rich, liquid sound, which tends toward being dark rather than bright, and which also happens to be dynamic and fast - and ultimately the Dynaudios didn't satisfy those criteria. They were too light sounding and too recessed in the midrange. However, they may be perfect for you, and I have a hunch (based on the - possibly inaccurate - picture I have formed of your sonic tastes) that you would like them.

The AE1s I have just bought (with the sexy STAE1 stands) satisfy my personal criteria almost exactly, and are the perfect size for my room (and any room I am likely to acquire for the next 20 years). They are fast and dynamic, while being as smooth and liquid as old Armagnac, capable of producing tonal complexities in abundance, while being able to maintain the rhythm. I therefore recommend them highly and would certainly encourage you to listen to them (particularly as the price has just been lowered because this is, as I understand it, the final series before a new model is introduced). My guess though is that they would not be to your taste. (If you ask me in a few months time, they might no longer be to my taste; although, I have fallen instantly in love with these speakers in a way which I haven't experienced since the LP12 and the Exposure amps, which is a good sign for long-term satisfaction.) By all means listen to them, but I have a hunch that you may find long term satisfaction with Dynaudio-based speakers.

I also agree with the suggestion above that you try the Sonus Faber Signums, which might also suit your tastes (though personally I don't much like their sound, and even less their aesthetics).

I don't think you would like the Audio Physic speakers. A friend is the local Audio Physic importer, and I could have bought any of these at less than half retail price. However, I found them all so unmusical (and in some cases positively bad) that I could not buy them and cannot recommend them.

In the final analysis, I don't think I can suggest anything more insightful than to try to listen to some of the suggestions above. However, if the Totems are doing it for you, and are still doing it for you a few months from now, these may be the ones.

Or there is the wisdom one dealer (who I almost trust) offered me when I started complaining about my Dynaudios: stop looking for the perfect pair of speakers and just keep changing them periodically. I didn't find this advice very satisfying.

Now, about those Naim amps ...

Ross

Ross wrote:

quote:

---

Now, about those Naim amps ...

---

Beware Vuk, Totem also has an integrated amp!!

and In Wall speakers too!

Richard.

I haven't heard the Tabu ($3500 Cdn), but I did hear both the Forest ($3500) and the Mani-2 ($4000) at this year's Montreal HiFi show. The Mani-2 was driven by a partial Naim front end - CDX and possibly an 82 (not totally sure about that) and a gargantuan PASS Labs power amp. I was impressed with them both. Given that it was a show, I wouldn't trust detailed descriptions to translate very well to a home demo. Forgive the cliche, but more than anything else I heard at the show these speakers disappeared leaving just music. By this I mean, melody, harmony and rhythm rather than artificial holographic images, even if Totems seem to be uniformly praised for round-earthish qualities like imaging.

Just out of curiosity, did the dealer also lend you the Totem "Beaks"? If so, did you notice any effect?

Cheers,

John Schmidt
"95% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon

Ross wrote:
"I think you should also listen to the Dynaudio 1.3SEs or Mk IIs if you can; I have a suspicion you would like them"

Where is John Channing (acknowledged expert on the Dynaudio 1.3/Naim combo) when you need him?

Timo

Thanks for all the replies guys. I would love to try all of the suggestions, but it is not easy here. PMC1 they have at the round earth shop, as well as some Acoustic Engergy, though not AE1s; Shahinians, Sonus Faber and the rest are not available nearby.

Ross, what you say about the recessed midrange with the Dynaudios is exactly what I find problematic on the Totems and, like you, I would like it to be a bit more robust and forward. The midrange politeness takes some emphasis of of drumming/thwacky sounds and that is what makes them a little too laid back for dance. While I've got your attention, do the AE1s go as low as the Dynaudios? There is an ex-dem pair in piano black (my fav finish for speakers) on the net and I am tempted to snap them up. The only thing holding me back is Mike Pranka's suggestion of Neat, which has just been independently seconded by Mana freak Paul Ogle in a private e-mail message. All these bloody coincidences.

Matthew, I really like SBLs but I've not heard them at my place, where I suspect they will under-perform, just like Credos and Kabers did. You see, while my room tends to underline boom in boomy speakers, it has the opposite effect of erasing most bass in finicky ones like the two I mention. I also guess I would never be able to sleep wondering whether my silicone seal has been evenly distributed to tolerances of 1/1,000,000" or the spikes are digging in to the aluminium plates just so. Then imagine the inevitable bumps into the speakers by drunken party people. I am very tolerant of quirky Naim designs like the puck, but the SBL business seems way over the top.

BTW--the local Naim rep used to represent Totem as well and preferes the Tabus to the more expensive Main-2s.

Vuk.

P.S. John, this has nothing to do with Mana, which is only under my TT right now (as I await the rest) and the P9 seems to do little wrong no matter what speaker I put in. if anything, when I put the CDX on Mana, I get a lot of that tonal complexity that I want. Nice try though!

P.P.S. Just in case you are coming away with this that the Tannoy 800s are not very good, I just want to reiterate that I have found them to be preferable to everything under $4K that I've tried and they're about 1/3rd that price.

Well, I can see, or rather hear why you like Totems. I've heard a couple at a local dealer and was extremely impressed. I've considered buying some myself but since I own the Nait, Totems do not offer a real choice, being too power hungry.

Another alternative is Monitor Audio. They have a new line coming out in the next few months - the Gold Reference - which looks quite promising. I cannot wait until my dealer gets a pair to demo. Prices in the US will be $1900, $3500, and $5500 I believe, so they're in your range. I've written about the glories of MA before and will do so again. Maybe Joseph Audio, as well. There's just something about metal drivers.

They're definitely not bloated, they don't add coloration, or at least not as much as most speakers I've heard, nor do they aurally appear to reorchestrate music (I know what you mean). The ones I have (the 700s) can get boxy if pushed to high levels - higher than I prefer to listen - but that also may be an artifact of the Nait coming close to it's limit. What they maintain, though, is speed. Just a thought.

The only totems I've heard were in a room at a show and at a demo fronted by an obviously malfunctioning (I hope) PS Audio Ultralink DAC (unremembered spinner and electronics, so I can't comment on them.

I listen with my gut, not my ears, and one of the most moving performances I've heard from a speaker came from Hales Revelation 3s - but I didn't listen long term. Another extremely moving performance came from Spendor S100s, driven by ARC and a CDS, ofall things.

If you're looking for the beauty of music, try and hear those. The Spendors did PR&T and dynamics, too, of course.