In what way did the MIBs improve upon the Mana sound when used under an LP12? Just curious.

Also, (not knowing anything about the MIBs) do you think that using them on a Mana shelf (as opposed to Target) would move the goalposts even further?

TC '..'

Aren't you on record already for not appreciating the Mana effect the way most others do? Also, your price comparison suggests the LP12 on the floor with the aurios in between. Presumably, you had a stand that could be levelled or do the Aurios allow for this? Finally, Sargent Petrik, there must be a FEP loss/punishment for liking something with such a childish name?

Cheers,
Robert

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Finally, Sargent Petrik, there must be a FEP loss/punishment for liking something with such a childish name?

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Robert,

Bob has bribed me with some strudel, so I know not'ing... not'ing.

Sergeant Petrik

There are some very vocal folks on the forum who dearly appreciate what Mana stands do. Indeed, Paul Stephenson has suggested that they may be a minority. When I have heard them properly it is my feeling that while very good, they are not the end-all, be-all that those vocal Mana fans seem to believe. One note--I have not heard them at home on a wooden floor--I've been lucky and have had carpet over concrete floors--this may well explain the difference. I fail to see how this is "strange." Also, others on the forum have not heard some of the stands I have, consequently it is difficult to put much stock in opinions that are not based on auditioning.

You are correct in pointing out that a rack is needed for the Aurios devices--although I did say a standard Target rack was used. I did not include it in the pricing comparison as Mana racks seem to generally be a replacement for others, the Aurios MIBs are used with existing racks.

I have no idea how the MIBs would work on top of Mana--my GUESS is that they would not improve it given how Mana is a holistic system.

Cheers,

Bob

Col. Vlink

Since you're the only one who has ever said anything--and most of it based on not hearing the items I have--perhaps your statement is similar to the one about the emperor having no clothes ?

Bob

PS--Vuk--These ad hominems do you no favors--you might try addressing the actual issues I discussed above.

[This message was edited by Bob Edwards on TUESDAY 24 October 2000 at 18:59.]

I suppose you've never watched Hogan's Heroes? But hey, you can't confuse Sgt. Petrik and I with your fancy latin, though I'm still not sure what you want me to say. You've stated before (as Robert points out) that you don't care much for Mana, so it's hardly surprising when you now tell us you like something else better. Am I missing something here?

Must go back to studying this recipe right now, so that my sergeant doesn't neglect his FEP duties so much.

Vuk.

P.S. Your dealer doesn't seem to check his e-mail.

Maybe we're both a bit guilty on the SOH failure. . .

I do not recall ever saying or posting that I think Mana is anything less than a great stand. I prefer other stands musically and sonically. I have taken exception with your hyperbole regarding the effect, I would again. At the end of the day it is all personal choice anyway.

Cheers,

Bob

Rico - The dealer in question happened to be the only dealer I have ever met who was willing to discuss - at length and with no thought of me ever buying anything - the tortuous subject of a good rack (hate that word!)for my system and my very specific requirements.

I personally feel Mana should be congratulated on their approach to marketing - Y'know -give a few pieces of kit away to some influential guys on some obsessive forum that gets more hits than an Amsterdam brothel and watch the orders roll in !

Hey Tony - Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa - better not say that too loud our antipodean friends might get jealous!

Regards P

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I have taken exception with your hyperbole regarding the effect, I would again.

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Bob.

If you regard my comments as hyperbole, then I suspect you have not heard the effect or that you do not care for it. I said that the Reference Table gave about an XPS level of improvement to my CDX. I then had Mike Hanson over to hear it and, after a 20 minute trial, with a non-standard cable, he figured it was about 80% of an XPS. I think Steve Karlik and Joe Pellizzari came away with similar impressions (not to mention Mana orders). My non-audiophile friends and neighbours seem to react comparably if not more exhuberantly than when I forced them all to endure XPS dems. I've also yet to hear negative feedback from any of the people (and there are quite a few) who have been prompted over the past couple of months to try Mana. It all adds up and is at odds with your characterisation of my reaction.

Maybe when you drag someone credible (like Tony Lonorgan) to your place for an Aurio trial I will be more convinced. Anyhow, I've contacted the Aurio people to see about getting a set to try out and we'll see what they have to say.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on TUESDAY 24 October 2000 at 22:45.]

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Maybe when you drag someone credible (like Tony Lonorgan)...

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...I'm credible. Lordy.

Tony.

Don

I have the Mana brochure and I am considering ordering something, perhaps a Sound Frame, but to be honest, I’m fed up hearing about the stuff. In fact, I have to admit to a huge degree of boredom with the constant drone about Mana supports. When people recommend a product or upgrade on this forum, it’s usually done in a certain, easy going manner. When it comes to Mana, it’s the opposite. I have this mental image of Mana supporters, typing furiously with bulging eyes and red faces, stopping to pound their chests, with an almost manic expression as they try to convince others that they are right and everyone else is wrong. It’s so condescending to suggest that, because someone has a view that Mana is best, that it will automatically be best for everyone. We all have different requirements so it won't always be best. The people who support Mana seem to become so agitated and aggressive when someone expresses a preference for something else. Why?

Vuk said:
“Maybe when you drag someone credible (like Tony Lonorgan) to your place for an Aurio trial I will be more convinced.

No offence to Tony, but exactly how does someone become ‘credible’? Are you suggesting that only certain people have a worthwhile opinion? Mana users perhaps?

For Pierre (How’s the new ‘caretaker’ job?)
Do you have a URL for Base? I’d like to see what it looks like.
You seem to be coming in for a bit of criticism for listening to the advice of a dealer. Personally, I can’t knock you for that. It’s what you go to an experienced dealer for. Just because the dealer can’t stock Mana doesn’t mean he is unaware of what it does to a system. Enough people on this forum describe it on a daily basis so they know what it does and aren’t selling it, why can’t the dealer know? If you describe what you want / don’t want, a dealers’ job is to guide you and that’s what happened. He guided you to Base and you liked it when it was demonstrated. Nothing wrong with that.

My question about Projekt was brought about by the fact that I like the look of the stuff.
I have a home made equipment support built out of finished plywood which looks a bit like a Projekt rack, but, because I’m not an expert with wood, I would rather have the real thing if it’s good. I don’t have any idea about the build quality of it. Did you have a good, close look at it?

Brian

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I have the Mana brochure and I am considering ordering something, perhaps a Sound Frame, but to be honest, I’m fed up hearing about the stuff. In fact, I have to admit to a huge degree of boredom with the constant drone about Mana supports.

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I don't understand why this is the case either, I happily use Mana products, and love what they do in my system, but I certainly do not consider myself to be a Mana fundamentalist, nor a Naim one for that matter. As an example, I really like both Densen and Exposure electronics, and I'm no great fan of the Intro or Credo, yet none of those opinions seem to produce anything like the controversy of the current 'stand wars'.

The only advice I can give is to listen to the stands, and also their competition, and choose which you prefer. Don't let the hype(rbole) sway you either way, and the anti-Mana / non-ferrous lot are equally as bad in this respect.

Mana are currently moving towards using a conventional dealer network, so comparisons against other stands at least in the UK should be easier to facilitate in the near future.

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No offence to Tony, but exactly how does someone become ‘credible’?

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Beats me, I'm putting it on my CV though.

Tony.

This is exactly my point.

I really haven't noticed the anti-metal people becoming anything like as vocal as the pro-mana people.

Brian

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I really haven't noticed the anti-metal people becoming anything like as vocal as the pro-mana people.

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You are forgetting the whole non-ferrous thing was getting quite heated on the old conference. Whilst I acknowledge this phenomenon exists, and can hear the effect, it was dragged out in a similar way, and was similarly pronounced by its disciples as being the only truth. I have not the slightest problem with the concept or effect, I do however have a big problem with anything pronounced as the only truth.

Evangelical preaching of any kind gets my back right up, regardless what the product or concept for sale is. I intensely dislike being told what to like by anyone, and I consider no one else's opinion any more valid than my own. I feel anyone buying or believing anything on hearsay, hype, or speculation is a total fool, whether that product is Mana, Quadraspire, Naim, Linn, or anything else.

The constructive thing to leave this debate with is the unquestionable fact that stands make a big difference, and are also very different to one another, try and hear as many as you can before making a decision.

Tony.

Tony

I apologise for overlooking the debates conducted on the old forum. You are right, I had forgotten.

You've put it in a nutshell in the statement above. This is my problem with the current debate.

Brian

To Mick,

There are very few places in the UK you can hear a Hutter setup, my flat is one, and the dealer Phonography is another. Phonography is in Ringwood Hampshire and the area would make a nice day out anyway if you have to travel (its on the edge of the New forest). The Hutter does give a different sound to Mana so bear that in mind before you buy, I like it others like it but not everyone will. FWIW I like the styling as well, and when you get close to it you can appreciate the quality, very hard to see in pictures

To Bob,

To my ears the Hutter comfortably outperforms Quadrasphire, all the good aspects none of the bad and plenty of tingle!
I agree with you that Quadrasphire takes a lot more fiddling than people think to give its best. Hutter seems to work straight out the box the only thing to be careful about is to ensure the base is VERY level the rest follows.

Somebody TC? thought the Hutter was modular like adding stages. It isn't there are several base choices and these can depend on your floor, I have floor, spikes, Hutter board, spikes, Hutter board, rest of rack, I believe the two boards are the HiFi base and that is as far as they go with multiple layers.

The hutter works on the principle of isolating components by having very "dead" shelves which are isolated from each other by the clever but simple uprights, I think this is very different to say Mana (similar as you add stages?) or the older racks which went for an overall rigid stand hence my concern over mixing manufacturers.

Cheers

Jason

Having said that, the demos my friend Neil has given me of his Mana set-up as it went from phases 2, to 4 to 6, are the most amazing demos I have ever heard. To my ears the improvements were so extreme that I now believe those who say that a £20,000 system without good supports is only working at a fraction of its potential. Finding out about the extraordinary effects supports have on equipment has been the most interesting discovery I have made about music reproduction ever. I can understand how Mana owners get very excited and want everyone to hear the effect for themselves.

So why don't I own Mana? One main reason was that I want to hear them properly demoed against my current set-up which uses large numbers of Nordost Pulsar points. Hearing that Mana are going back into dealers should address this problem. My wife also finds the high-tech looks less attractive than out existing Ash stand (which fits into our room beautifully). Lastly, I do not enjoy tinkering with Hi-Fi, I want to listen to it, and so the set-up process of Mana puts me off, as do the reports that the set-up can go out of tune degrading the sound significantly. I would be more attracted to a product that works "out of the box".

My pulsar points "only" cost a few hundred pounds and I will bide my time before making a substantial investment in supports. I also have done an A/B comparison against Neil's Phase 4 so I know the pulsar points are as good as a lowish phase Mana support. I would be very interested in trying aurios.

Incidentally I was interested in the description of how Hutter works as it fits my theory that many stands work by aborbing vibrations (turning them into very small amounts of heat). My personal opinion about the original posting on this thread is that my theory that the resonant structure carries vibrations efficiently to the soundbases where it is absorbed is more likely than the resonance adds "pleasant" distortions to the sound. I am an experienced Hi-Fi listener and have owned two pieces of kit which did colour the sound (A Koetsu Rosewood cartridge, and early Tannoy concentric speakers), and had no doubt that they were adding their own character to the sound. My ears tell me that the effect of adding phases to Mana is better and better realism in the sound reproduction.

I might add that I have no sympathy for Mana enthusiasts complaining about damaging misinformation being spread about Mana. Mana choose not to publish how their stands work. The stands are highly counterintuitive at first sight (which was why I tried to find a theory that explained them). Mana enthusiasts can hardly complain when a perfectly plausible theory is given that suggests the stands colour the sound - it is an inevitable effect of Mana's secrecy.

Nic P

[This message was edited by Nic Peeling on WEDNESDAY 25 October 2000 at 13:38.]

[This message was edited by Nic Peeling on WEDNESDAY 25 October 2000 at 13:40.]

[This message was edited by Nic Peeling on WEDNESDAY 25 October 2000 at 13:45.]

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that I have no sympathy for Mana ... Mana choose not to publish how their stands work.

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Nic.

They don't know how the stands work, you don't know how the stands work, nobody knows how they work. What do you want them to publish, speculative bullshit? If you like reading that sort of thing, check out the brochures from Shun Mook, Chang, Nordost, MIT, XLO, etc.

BTW--this is not a Mana rant: if anyone claimed to know how any hi-fi accessory worked in making music sound better than another, I would level the same criticism.

Vuk.