I'm looking for a new rack to house all my kit. Currently using Quadraspire Q4, can either buy another one of these for new acquisitions or can take the plunge and invest in something "better"... like mana. Probably not Fraim as I'm not into the aesthetics (there again I'm not into mana either, but i find it a little less intrusive - it doesn't make any styling statement, it's just minimalist).

However, 2 mana racks will set me back circa £1300, which is ok but for the fact i've never actually heard anything on mana - so i'm buying blind. Can anyone offer advice as to whether it really makes that much difference over Q4 (after all, I listened to naim equipment, albeit different levels, at 3 separate demos before buying, all three dealers used Q4, and at all 3 I was suitably impressed with the sound to end up buying naim.... if Q4 is as bad a people make out surely I wouldn't have bought naim in the first place! Or is it that Q4 is ok, just that mana is massively better?)

Somewhat confused, and wanting to place an order today before the mana price hike!

Can any one offer objective advice - has anyone had extended time with both mana & Q4 to be able to describe the difference.

Many thanks!

the words mana and objective make strange bedfellows.

Bob

I want to buy a QS Ref. Aren´t you interested up grade your QS for a Ref?

MY system : Naim Nait 5 amplifier,Naim cd 5 ,Epos M 15 speakers,Naca5,FC2

What are you looking for in your stand. The Quadraspire is good kit and if you like it keep it. Mana will do certain things better, some would say "all things better" but has been critiscised for being too lively, too fiddly and untuneful. I haven't heard enough to comment but I know a couple of people who've ditched Mana and went over to Hutter. Myself, I use Hutter which is not only a great neutral sounding table but looks like furniture rather than a hi-fi rack. Others swear by Isoblue which certainly looks good and performs well for the money.

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

The only advice I would give is don't spend £1300 on a stand without hearing it. I have never heard Mana but I do know that some people love it and others hate it. If you hate it I expect the loss you make on selling it would be far greater than the saving you would make on buying it before the price increase.

The Q4 is a good rack, the reference is better. The Fraim is miles better than the Ref. I had a black ref and changed to a black Fraim which I love the look of, though I don't believe Naim sell that many; most people preferring the cherry and silver, which we didn't like. Have you seen the black version?

Nigel

Also it depends on the floor you are using it on.

To be fair I had great results using Mana on a suspended wooden floor, and would not have changed mine but for running out of rack space. I demo'ed the Fraim against the Mana, and then sold the Mana. All be it this demo was at my new home which has a concrete floor.

I will at some stage try some Mana under my SL2's - they worked really well under the SBL's I used before.

andy c!

Nigel's right -- try first, if at all possible. If it isn't possible, perhaps you could find a used Mana wall shelf to experiment with -- if you don't like it you could sell it on and come out roughly even.

I have both a Q4 rack and a mana wallshelf. When I got the Mana I experimented around with different components on different things (sad, I know, but aren't we all?) Anyway, results of my little experiment, in brief:

Mana under LP12: Better than Q4
Mana under CD3.5: yuck
Mana under various Naim amps: I honestly couldn't hear any difference from the Q4.

FWIW, Eric

Thanks for the advice everybody. Gut feels says don't spend all this money without hearing 1st, but i need a solution soonish, as I'm listening to 135's and P9 PS sitting on the floor at the mo. And can't help feeling that the Q4 doesn't suit the P9, as for it's effect on the rest of the kit really am not sure.

Guess that the easiest/cheapest is to go the Q4 route, although will be wasted money in the long run as I'm sure to upgrade to something to bring out the best of my kit.

Unfortunatley nowhere to listen to mana around here. There is a fraim dealer fairly nearby, but I just can't get on with the looks, even in black. Probably suits the new kit better than the olive stuff.

Hutter is just a little too nordic looking for my tastes, as is isoblue. As for the Q4 ref, can't help feeling it's a lot of money for what it is, having heard mixed reports about it's effectiveness. It is, however, the most aesthetically pleasing to my eye (yes yes, i know it looks like a 50's tea trolley ;-) ).

What I can see from the responses here is that if people have moved away from mana, then it isn't the unequevical yes that the mana guys would have me believe... anybody out there in Switzerland / France who has mana??

I have a soundframe under my LP12 and soundbases under my Kans. I really appreciate what it does to the sound of my system - without it the music is more wooly, less propulsive. I've only listened to it against Sound Org, so I can't say how it compares to the other 'proper' stands. I bought mine secondhand, and the prices are static. If you can find some for sale, you'll almost certainly not make a loss on it if you don't get on with it.

Naim used Hutter before they started manufacture of the Fraim, so that must say something if you want the best Naim sound.

I also agree, that racks are a total pain, it is risky buying blind because you may hate it.

A lot of people like the Quadraspire but I dislike it intensly it, so best to hear before you buy.

Regards

Mick

out of interest, how much is fraim nowadays... I need 8 levels (gulp)

I believe it is £550 for the base and £345 for a standard level, so the cost would be a very modest £3170, assuming two bases and six levels.

Nigel

Hi Christopher,

Having read so much about the Mana effect, I wanted to experience it before investing any money in a stand. I decided to buy a Mini Table first, if I didn't like the effect I could always resell it. I like the effect the table has under the CDS and the Mana's minimalistic look goes very well with the olive Naim gear, so I plan to buy two 4-tiers one day, when funds permit. I have to admit I haven't compared the Mini table to other stands, but I don't see an alternative. Fraim is out of the question because of the looks and the rip-off pricing (a missed chance IMHO), Quadraspire reminds me of furniture for a Chinese restaurant, my wife hates the Hutter's look. I like the Finite Elemente Pagode looks, but I won't be able to try the stand without buying and I'm not convinced their basic stand is real value for money. From what I read, quite some users in Holland have chosen Solid Steel stands. No way to try out in my system, but I like the looks. I see on their site that they now offer glass shelfs as well!


In the Benelux the Fraim Base costs 850 EUR and the Fraim Classic layer 550 EUR. In your case it would cost you 5.000 EUR (2 Bases and 6 Layers)!

If you are in Luxembourg, you can come and have a listen, although I think it will be more interesting to hear a complete system on Mana, like Hermann's system in Germany.

Ciao!

Willem

WOW! That's a bit steep! Definitely out of the question...

Willem, you have hit on my sentiments exactly... curious to know, ehen you say mini table, you mean the turntable stand, or just a mini shelf on top of another pice of equipment?

Hi Christopher,

When you visit the Mana site, you will find a picture of the Mini Table in the products section. If I remember correctly it's more or less the same as the Sound Frame, the Sound Frame is just lower. I preferred the Mini Table's look.
If you put a Mini Table on a Mana Table/Shelf, you get a Reference Table/Shelf = phase 2. In the Mana logic, if you put a Mini Table on an amplifier stand, the component on top of the Mini Table will be phase 2, the rest phase 1. If you then add a Sound Stage under the amplifier stand the top component is phase 3, the rest phase 2, etc. There's an example of a phase 4 table in the products section (top component is phase 4, rest is phase 3).
Of course, if you start adding all these levels you will soon arrive at the Fraim price level.

Ciao!

Willem

i know you will be buying blind, but arent i right in thinking that mana offers a trial period and you can get a full refund if you dont like it?

Willem

You mention the Fraim's 'rip off' pricing. My stack costs about £2,600, but then a supercap costs about £2,800. If you think of one as just a stand and the other as just a box that provides power to make your preamp work, then they both seem pretty overpriced. But when you hear what they do in your system that value judgement may change.

It is a mistake to think of the Fraim purely as a stand; rather it is a fundamental part of the system. I always thought it too expensive to justify until I heard what it did, and when you experience the engineering and build quality you start to see why it costs so much.

Of course to most people the prices of Quadraspire, Isoblue, Hutter, Mana or Fraim are all pretty barmy.

Regards

Nigel

Take an evening class in welding and build your own to taste and size?

Steel and aluminium tube and angle and nuts and bolts are all amazingly cheap. Unless you give them a fancy name.

Toughened glass shelves are available for kitchen-cooker, oven-window replacement. I found a big stack of 50x38cm x5mm unnused shelves. These prompted me to replace my previous steel tube and MDF shelf DIY efforts with a single metre high rack.

My entire 6-tier rack probably cost the equivalent of 3 full price CDs.

But then I like to spend my hard earned funds on other things than hype.

Nime

Quadraspire

I bought my Quadraspire Reference following an A/B dem with Quadraspire standard using CDX/82/180 and CD5/112/150 systems. It was a case of moving the CD players across from the top of one rack to another.

The Ref was significantly better than the standard and its effect reminded me of when I first heard a CDS2 in place of a CDX...

Then came the idea of cutting holes in the shelves to reduce overall mass and resonant amplitude. This improved dynamics.

More recently acrylic shelves came along. This improved dynamics and low-level detail further.

An all-acrylic Qs Ref against Fraim would be an interesting comparison.

Regards,

Steve.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hungryhalibut:
Willem

You mention the Fraim's 'rip off' pricing. My stack costs about £2,600, but then a supercap costs about £2,800. If you think of one as just a stand and the other as just a box that provides power to make your preamp work, then they both seem pretty overpriced. But when you hear what they do in your system that value judgement may change.

---

Hi Nigel,

We have discussed this at length in the past, I know, but every time I see the price Naim asks for just one level of Fraim, I feel a certain anger because in my view it is so evidently a rip off. A Naim power supply may be overpriced as well, but there you don't have a choice ... Unless you decide to buy second hand.

quote:

---

It is a mistake to think of the Fraim purely as a stand; rather it is a fundamental part of the system.

---

That's exactly why I was so disappointed by Naim's pricing policy. Instead of offering a good base to all it's loyal customers to enjoy their system in the best possible conditions, Naim prefer to offer a posh stand for the happy few, twice the price of the already expensive existing stands.

I have seen the Fraim in Frankfurt at the High End and at my dealer's, but I really don't see why it should be more than twice more expensive than a Hutter or a Finite Elemente rack.

Ciao!

Willem