Hi guys;

With all the increasing rave about analog again I'm getting curious myself. Many of us naimophyles can't stretch to an LP12 to start our vinyl adventures. We're not sure if we are going to like vinyl. Nothing will be better than going to a dealer and having a listen, but... What should we be looking at?

What is a recommended budget turntable that will outperform a CD5x or even a CDx2 without breaking the bank?

Regards...

Try Rega, including their phono stage, for a modest start.

Jono

A Rega P3 is a great entry level TT, but I love my VPI Scout, tremendous bang for one's buck IMO

I ended up spending a little less on the TT so I could get a better cartridge.

Others to consider:
Project
Mitchell
Clearaudio
Roksan Radius

Many will sing the praises of a suspended TT like the LP12, but IMO the non-sprung TTs are way easier to set up and give great results.

After all a badly set up LP12 won't sound better than a good non-sprung ...

the budget is dependent on the end user

I think 4-500 pound for an entry level is ample

so you can either have a new Planar 2/3
or
2nd hand LP12


I got the LP12

If you get the Rega P3-24 make sure you get the power supply too ( £100 ), it made a huge difference to mine.

Btw there's a secondhand Rega P3-24 in the Naim dealership in Brighton for £300.

This week I saw a new P3-24 at my Naim/Rega dealer. At first sight I thought it was a P2, as the plinth looked thinner than the old Planar-3.

Visually I definitely prefer the old Planar-3 over the new P3/24! (and P3)
(not only because the original plint is thikker, the finish also looks better imho)

Nevertheless, for a plug-and-play starters TT it's still quite good VFM.

Technics SL-1200 or 1210

hififorsale is my favourite second hand website and will give you an idea of what you could get for your money if you decide to go down that path.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Adam Meredith,

quote:

What is a recommended budget turntable that will outperform a ... a CDX2 ...

None that I've heard - especially if you add a 555PS to the CDX2.

However there are some great budget TTs around

Rega P3-24/Exact/Fono with TT-PSU
Michell Gyro/TechnoArm/DV20XL/DV-P75
Technics SL1200 with AO-Rega RB250

come to mind as worthy contenders, but if you can find a good s/h LP12 and somebody who knows how to set it up then that's the way to go, as this will perform as well as, if not better, than a CDX2 - IMHO.

ROTF,

'Budget' is not a word one normally uses for a Gyro/Tecnoarm/DV20xl/P75 ! Well, sure it hits 'a' budget - a £2500 budget!

Alco,

The P3-24 plinth is very different to tht of the Planar 3. The old plinth was chipboard, the new one is MDF. The new one also has the laminated top which strangthens the plinth, and which was not on the older plinth. I agree it looks more P2-like since the P2 did have a slimmer plinth, but that's the way of development. You can't always expect something to look the same I guess.

In answer to the original post...

A CD5x takes some beating. A P3-24 with Dynavector 10x5 and possibly the TTPSU at about £650 is still a bit shy of the CD5x's performance in many ways. It doesn't have the scale and grip of the CD5x. In my view the same ballpark performance is given with something like a Rega P5 with TTPSU and a Goldring 2500 cartridge. This combination comes in under £1000 and brings some of the best attributes of vinyl with it. The P5 does not have the rhythm and timing of the CD5x without the TTPSU, but once that is added the turntable's performance takes on a very different perspective.

Of course at under £1000 you can source a 2nd hand LP12. Just ensure you know its provenance and have it verified as being in good shape by someone who knows LP12s before you buy it. £600 - £750 should buy you a reasonable deck with a nice arm. Add a service and a nice new cartridge and you're in business.

If you want an LP12, then buy a second hand one, there are many around, decent ones at £400-500. They aren't as fussy to set up as many people make out, and should knock the socks off of most new decks below £750, and many above that.

If your budget is less, and you want a bouncer then a Thorens TD160 or 160 Super, a Thorens TD 150 or a Systemdek IIx900 can all be had for less than £200 and do a sterling job, and IMHO are all beter than the P2/3. YMMV

We had one person come in the other week with an LP12 he bought 2nd hand on eBay. It was totally shagged. The only thing about it that hadn't been mullered was the wooden plinth. The top plate had been bent, the subchassis distorted, the bearing was a mess.

It helps to have someone who knows LP12s to buy one 2nd hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
We had one person come in the other week with an LP12 he bought 2nd hand on eBay. It was totally shagged. The only thing about it that hadn't been mullered was the wooden plinth. The top plate had been bent, the subchassis distorted, the bearing was a mess.

It helps to have someone who knows LP12s to buy one 2nd hand.

of course, i was assuming a decent one Frank, if you buy off a grainy pic on ebay....then you only have yourself to blame, besides the 12 is readily uypgradeable and repairable, and many enthusisat know how to do it competently, my comments where more about the myths of going out of tune etc

This thread is particularly interesting to me as I have been thinking about replacing my LP12. I bought it in 1977 and have always treated it with respect. It has had a Circus update and has an Akito 1 arm and Adikt cartridge.

If I were to have it serviced, which I haven't done for a long time, would the performance match that of a Rega 5 including PSU? If not I would be tempted to replace it as I no longer enjoy fiddling around with set up as much as I used to and would enjoy having s plug and play record deck.

I do not want to invest hugely in the turntable as I spend much more time listening to my CDX2 nowadays.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Phillip

Isapell IMHO you'd be better with the Linn serviced, but a change of arm and cart may reap bigger rewards, a s/h ittock, can be had for less than £400 this would give a worthwhile improvement .

I've a rega planar 3, with the elys 2 cartridge and a rega fono phono-amp. Not the motor upgrade and power supply, but...

The CD5x beats it hands down .. and at £1400 odd, compared to the total of £450 I've spent on the turntable since new, so it should!!

Go fancier, I think, if you want to match your CDP rather than just play a few LPs.

I am going to play with a Rega P2 K9 tomorrow.
I have not played with one of these TTs since 1982.
Should be fun.
Munch

I've got a different take on this. I don't think outperforming the Naim players you mention is possible, simply because the formats are so different.

CDs score in a couple of different areas over vinyl: they can reproduce silence, their channel separation is much better, and wow and flutter effectively don't exist. Also, they seem much less prone to the vagaries of pressings. Don't forget that a lot of the pluses of vinyl come with the quality of the original pressing, and the rule of thumb is that the more popular the record, the worse the later pressings will be. It doesn't matter how much you have spent on the turntable, a poor pressing will always be that.

I don't think I have a record that doesn't pop, hiss or crackle at some point during playing, whereas I don't know of a CD that is anything less than perfect in terms of extraneous noise. However, if I want to listen to Dire Straits, King Crimson or Nina Simone, for example, it is to the vinyl I turn. I have CDs of all of them, but the vinyl simply sounds better. That's another rule of thumb: if your interest is in music up to the 1980s, then the original vinyl will probably out-perform CD, save for the limitations I've mentioned. I'm deliberately excluding the recent re-issues here - haven't found one yet that can match the original pressings. Put simply, vinyl was at its best up to the mid eighties, after which CD ruled, OK?

That said, on another point I'd like to add a couple more brands to consider. If you want to go down the secondhand route and are willing to look beyond made in Britain, there are some fine turntables available at good prices. Luxman made a series of turntables that, according to my memory of the reviews at the time, were better than many if not most of the UK brands then available, including Rega.
My personal favourites, next to the Linns which were and still are unaffordable to someone of my limited means, are the AR series of turntables. They're rareish birds in the UK, despite being made in Scotland, but if you can find a good one, snap it up.

If you want to buy new you might also consider the Technics - some web and hifi mag reviews recommend them - may comment further when mine arrives.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
ROTF,

'Budget' is not a word one normally uses for a Gyro/Tecnoarm/DV20xl/P75 ! Well, sure it hits 'a' budget - a £2500 budget!

Hi Frank

Thanks for the correction - my use of budget was badly chosen.

My excuse is that I had in my mind that the Gyro as a TT I tried at home and rate as good as a CDX2 and on some recordings better. It's very easy to set up. I think if I wanted a deck of commensurate quality with the CDPs that Flame suggests and wasn't near a great Linn dealer then this would be my TT of choice; I don't think he can do it on a smaller budget. So the Gyro should not have been in my budget list, but recommended as a TT that met Flame's sonic criteria.

Of course I think Rega make fantastic TTs for less money, but they are not as good as the Gyro or LP12 IMHO - a view I think we all share.

quote:

It helps to have someone who knows LP12s to buy one 2nd hand.

Again I agree with you. I had a Linn that had been neglected and didn't sound good; I could've had it rebuilt, but think it needed so much replaced it wasn't worth it. Consequently, I decided on a new one and am delighted with it. My arm is ex-demo and the Lingo is 2nd hand, but if I hadn't been told this was the case I'd never have know - they are perfect. The reason I'm so happy is down to a good dealer.

ATB Rotf

Hi Flame

What TTs can you demo and which ones can you get dealer support for?
Even Rega TTs are supposed to be set-up for you with the cartridge aligned and fixed to a precise torque and you need a stylus balance. That said I've set-up a Rega and felt is was fine.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Luxman made a series of turntables that, according to my memory of the reviews at the time, were better than many if not most of the UK brands then available, including Rega.

Luxman made some excellent TTs - when I had a Planar 2 in 1980 and was thinking of upgrading, I heard a Luxman PD-300 and it was really good, but IIRC it cost more than twice the price of the LP12. The PD-300 had a vacuum suction platter, but if your records were not spotless clean it could damage them - this was why I crossed it off my list. I'd guess PD-300s and PD-555s in good condition are collectors' items rather than bargains though - great if you can get one and have access to spare parts.