These days we often hear people saying that with the CDS3 the gap between vinyl and the CD has finally been closed. I haven't had a chance to hear the CDS3 yet, but I am prepared to believe that. Bravo Naim! Many of us doubted that this was really possible.

On the other hand, this begs the question of what vinyl reproduction would be like today if the same amount of high-level engineering had been devoted to improving it as there has been to improving CD recording and reproduction in the last 20 years. It seems obvious that vinyl reproduction would now be far better than the CDS3, doesn't it?

-- Pierre

The premise isn't true. No CD player sounds like a TT. The formats are different. If you prefer vinyl (as I do) there's absolutely no question of its superiority over any CD player you care to name.

-- Ian

IMO vinyl technology went backwards when Edisons' cylinders where replaced by discs.

Bah humbug.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

quote:

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Originally posted by sideshowbob:
The premise isn't true. No CD player sounds like a TT. The formats are different. If you prefer vinyl (as I do) there's absolutely no question of its superiority over any CD player you care to name.
-- Ian

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Moreover is how the CD or LP sounds, some cds are fabulous, some are not as good and some are crap, and it's the same for LP.
What you are getting from your highend CD player or your highend TT, mostly depends on the way the recording was done. IMHO the key is the recording.

Cheers,

Edouard

quote:

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Originally posted by mike lacey:
IMO vinyl technology went backwards when Edisons' cylinders where replaced by discs.

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Well at least you'd get linear tracking.

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

I love vinyl and I think there is more to it than just the sound. Here are some things I like about it:

1) I love the look of my turntable (Rega P25) - whether it's going or not. But I especially love to see the disc spinning around. There is something visually appealing about the circular record and the linear tonearm in juxtaposition. Which leads to...

2) That same juxtaposition producing music. I am connected to the tonearm when I connect it to the record which connects to me when it makes music. It just seems more organic and I like it.

3) I enjoy the care I must take with my collection. Most of it could not be replaced for love or money. It seems to add a respectful tone to my use of the medium and I like it.

Just some thoughts.

Deane

Indeed, plus no end-of disc distortion...

Bit of a bugger to store, though...

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

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Indeed, plus no end-of disc distortion...

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Eh?

Paul

Nearer the end of an LP the circle is tighter and so the curve along which the stylus travels is tighter ( = poorer sound. )The velocity of the vinyl nearer the middle is slower so the information is compressed into less distance than at the beginning, so it sounds worse. Thats why 12" 45s sound as good as they do.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

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Originally posted by mike lacey:
Thats why 12" 45s sound as good as they do.

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So Naim will releasing all their future 180g albums in that format. I wish

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

quote:

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On the other hand, this begs the question of what vinyl reproduction would be like today if the same amount of high-level engineering had been devoted to improving it as there has been to improving CD recording and reproduction in the last 20 years. It seems obvious that vinyl reproduction would now be far better than the CDS3, doesn't it?

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Pierre

It is not really correct that Vinyl lacks high level engineering. If you look at the design of TT's today and the use of new materials in the construction there is obviously a fair amount of engineering and experimentation going on.

The latest version of theTownsend "Rock" for example which has a arc shaped trough of Silicone damping fluid the end of the tones arm moves in and the inclusion of Plaster in the construction of the dense platter etc.

Ther are some very very expensive and even more exotic TT's out there rising to the dizzy heights of 50,000 + gb Pounds in cost.

Just like CD vinyl experts are trying to get more out of the blacjk stuff IMO.

regards
GEOFF

BTW I'm, a CDS3 fan,

"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"

quote:

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On the other hand, this begs the question of what vinyl reproduction would be like today if the same amount of high-level engineering had been devoted to improving it as there has been to improving CD recording and reproduction in the last 20 years. It seems obvious that vinyl reproduction would now be far better than the CDS3, doesn't it?

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I think the interesting question, and one that's been hinted at in the above is "where would vinyl have been today if it's had the same development as CD in the PRODUCTION of it"

The reproduction of vinyl is ever developing, no question about that.

But, what has happened in the production of it? Probably next to nothing. They are most probably cutting discs with the same direct drive Neumann lathes as 30 years ago, with the same very bad cutting amps and the same digital delays for controling the spacing of the groove. Or?

Think of it, if cutting technology hade continued to develop from where Linn:s clearly state of the art mastering system had left of 20 years ago?

JohanR

But as the move to cd was marketing driven rather than a quality issue it is natural that no development continued for the software.

quote:

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What you are getting from your highend CD player or your highend TT, mostly depends on the way the recording was done. IMHO the key is the recording.

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I suspect that the real culprit, more often than not, was and still is the production not the recording.

This was certainly true of much vinyl produced in the 80s. At that time I had a friend who worked in QA for EMI at Hayes. He was involved in a constant struggle against cost cutting iniatives that were driving production standards down through use of thinner pressings, poor quality or recycled vinyl, worn out press tools and lower acceptance levels. Eventually he gave up and joined Sony as a sound engineer.

Although its probably easier to maintain production quality standards with modern digital media, I very much doubt they're immune to the same kind of pressures and problems.

Let 's say the key is the production and the recording.
From what your're saying the production is more of an issue for LPs than cds.
On the other hand they are marvellous analog recorded cds and some remastered bad ones.

At anyrate beautiful recording with top level production make you love LPs and CDs as well...and make your expensive CDS3 our TT worth the money spent!

Regards,

Edouard

Couldn't agree more, the best of both LPs and CDs are fantastic, at the other end of the scale, the worst examples of either can be utterly unlistenable.

'The latest version of theTownsend "Rock" for example which has a arc shaped trough of Silicone damping fluid the end of the tones arm moves in and the inclusion of Plaster in the construction of the dense platter etc.'

It was like that 20 years ago when it first appeared!

Bob

Aye, the Rock. Positivly stone age.

Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by bob mccluckie:
'The latest version of theTownsend "Rock" for example which has a arc shaped trough of Silicone damping fluid the end of the tones arm moves in.'

It was like that 20 years ago when it first appeared!

Bob

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And SME before that. I still have the trough and arms to prove it, somewhere.

Nime

Hey Nime
check your private messages or e mail me.

Bob