Alex I agree with some of what you are saying, but basically you are whining, and its annoying

Alex,

New technology does NOT, per se, equal better sound/picture/quality.

CD has been around for over 20 years. It still can't beat LP for sound quality.

I have a 10 year old Panasonic (S)VHS which delivers every bit as a good a picture as my Pioneer DVD player.

My 12 year old 29" Sony TV displays as good a picture as any plasma screen that I have seen.

OTOH

HDTV is definitly better than any current picture format that I have seen. This was based on demonstrations a few years back at Heathrow by PATH (they of ML import fame) who projected HDTV images captured on a digital video-tape player. I wouldn't have said it was six-times better. Perhaps twice as good, but who can tell, twice as good/six times as good? its all subjective.

I don't anticipate seeing HDTV or HD(other format) at affordable prices (player + projector) for several years.

Would I buy a DVD5? depends on how good the picture is.
If its absolutely and utterly stunning, yes.
If its only a little bit better than a £500 DVD recorder/player, no

Concerning Naim quality and your concern that their DVD research has diluted the quality of their product range generally, - I haven't seen (or heard) any evidence of this. I understand they have a top-of-the-range cds3-beating cd player in the pipeline for those lucky bastards that enjoy 552/avtive-500 systems and percieve the cds3 as the weak link....

Cheers

Don

Sorry Don, that's plain nonesense. A LP is no where near as good as a CD as far as quality is concerned. the pure Physical layout and capabilities of any LP is inferior to a CD. If the authoring of a CD is crap, that's not the CDs fault. Nor can a SVHS come anywhere close to a DVD. Plain nonesense. Plasmas are not comparable to odrinary TVs.

HD is effectivly 6 times as sharp and potentially more depending if you are using 720p, 1080p or future higher resolutions. Projectors capable of HD cost 1500€ upwards, that's full support of 720p which already makes a huge difference. The only HD projector managing the 1080 is a 30000 Euro projector I think made by Epson. But 720p, which is HD and great already can be done by any of the newer projectors (Hitachi, Panasonic, Sanyo etc.)

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Alex B,

If you've found a reasonably priced CDP that sounds better than a reasonably priced TT I'd like to know the make and model. As would everyone else here. Don't keep secrets.

PS- You have Kool-Aid stains on your lips.

Lord, where to start.

Alex, you have a few things right and a few things wrong...way wrong.

One could make a decent argument that Naim is coming in a bit late with their first DVD player. I for one do not think that Naim should even worry with AV.

The first thing for any new format is the quality of the software. News flash people, Hollywood does not put the same time and energy into their soundtracks that musicians do (Including that bumbling idiot George Lucas). There is nothing "musical" about DVD sound. It's noise. Plain and simple.

That being said, the best a DVD player can hope to do is reproduce the best picture possible. I do not live in the largest of media markets the US has to offer, but one of the largest cable providers in the country also happens to be mine and there is scant offerings in the HD department. CBS has its own dedicated HD channel that hardly EVER shows anything in HD.

What does this mean for the next generation DVD player? That's a good question. One of the problems is that blue laser technology keeps burning up the discs. Eventually they'll overcome that technological hurdle (if they haven't already), but then there's the Movie studios', hardware manufacturers', and federal regulations stipulations to all be met and agreed upon.

I would be seriously suprised to see anything in the next 2-3 years. So what to do until then? I haven't seen a DVD5 yet, but if it produces the best picture available at its price point, then go for it. I can't see it playing "music" better than a CD5x however. And at $4400 that's a pretty steep price.

Alex, the reason why Naim cd players, and their electronics for that matter, are so good is b/c of the circuit grounding and power supplies used. I have seen other manufactuers who used the latest greatest DAC or DSP chip and their product still wasn't in the same world as a Naim piece. They skimped on good, sound electrical engineering.

Finally, I'm having a hard time understanding how the Ariva is an AV speaker. I'm listening to it right now with Rega kit and it has all the musical nuances and PRaT that a music speaker has. Perhaps you should try something else besides Technics and Pioneer. Their engineers do not have the first clue into proper signal grounding and power supplies.

Long live Naim's musical products. I'll take a pass on their AV stuff though.

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

My local Naim dealer is situated in an old school in a small rural village. Remarkably; it seems to sustain good business by stocking Naim and several other quality brands of 2 channel stereo equipment.

No AV stuff whatsoever, and virtually no demand for it, at this quality level.

A representative 'barometer' of Naim sales?

Sure; city based Naim dealers are going to pick up some AV business, but I don't think there's enough of an AV market place at this quality/cost level to make it anywhere near as financially viable as the 2 channel stereo stuff.

I guess that Naim feel they have to pick up the ball and run with it.

The marketing gurus tell us that 2 channel stereo is dead/dying. Who would have predicted 10 years ago; the current vibrant market in turntables and valves?

Our strange addiction is an affair of the heart - logic does not apply.

OK, let's see. If you are willing to be my sponsor I will be glad to go buy an AV2, three stereo poweramps and hook it all up to any CDP recommended by you.

I have no idea where you heard blu-ray burns discs but that's not true. Blue-Ray and the competitor HD-DVD are both ready and formats have been decided on. Also the players are already in the making.

As far as shows and movies are concerned you are wrong again. Shows like The new Enterprise, Jay Leno, all big BBC wildlife reports etc. are recorded in HD. And almost all films used for movies although analog have a HD resolution and can easily be copied onto HD media. Terminator 2 for example has already been released as HD-version on a ordinary DVD. Outstanding quality. Almost every movie available, especially the ones recorded on analog film are HD compatible. The main problem would be the special effects which often times have been produced to lower resolutions. Other than that, almost everything can be released in HD. Your channels not showing it is simply a matter of cost.

Even a Technics CDP will beat any LP if both are recorded or authored to maximum media capabilities. The plain resolution of a CD is far higher, so are the frequencies supplied. There is no chance a LP can beat a CD unless of course you want it to and simply trick yourself into believing it. Quality is not about liking or believing, it's about resolution and facts.

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Good point J.N. and I agree.

The one point I agree with Alex B on is that Naim is coming late into the game with the DVD5. DVD technology is not radically different from CD. They're both digital after all. Obviously the CD was groundbreaking/for some others disappointing. The first Naim cd player was introduced in 1991 about 10 years after the first cd player. The DVD player was introduced back around 1996. Eight years later Naim has their first player. Did it really take them 8 to figure everything out? I find that hard to believe as they had already mastered digital technology. I think maybe, that Naim feels like they HAVE to do it.

I hope this is not the case. As others have pointed out Naim is a small operation and a foray into AV may take away valuable time and energy from hifi. I hope they do not dally too long in AV.

I say wait a few more years to find out if DVD-A and SACD even pan out. Hell, every year there's a new addition to Dolby Digital and DTS: DD & DTS 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 etc.

Pretty soon we'll have speakers in the floor, ceiling, and maybe even in our Sofa.

Think ya got room Alex B.?

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

Alex B

Yup, those are Kool-Aid stains- "Marketing" flavor. Your head-in-ass textbook gibberish is 100% meaningless. You can't play a CD on paper. And judging sound quality is about perceptions, not data.

PS- You'd really like SonyStyle.

[This message was edited by Ludwig on Sat 18 September 2004 at 1:43.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex B.:

Even a Technics CDP will beat any LP if both are recorded or authored to maximum media capabilities. The plain resolution of a CD is far higher, so are the frequencies supplied. There is no chance a LP can beat a CD unless of course you want it to and simply trick yourself into believing it.

---

Alex, you have now (once again...)showed everyone at this forum that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. What is your agenda? You have told us Naim's entry gear is crap despite being praised almost everywhere. When you say you have tried,and not liked, Naim electronics at home you have used CDr's and mp3... no wonder it sounds crap. Your credibility is below zero imnho. I also wonder how you can state that your Naim speakers are good when you feed them with this junk... It doesn't matter how many words you use, most people here have tried/owned a lot of different gear but prefer Naim.

bjorne,

Actually, I see why Alex says Naim speakers sound good. Naim speakers are, after all, skillfully designed and completely revealing of source components. The Naim speaker clearly reveals the Pioneer and Technics components.

It's just that Alex actually likes the Pioneeer and Technics sound.

Should we tell him he could have got that with Pioneer speakers and saved himself a bundle?

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

My modest LP-12 blows away my CDS3. LP is still state of the art for sound quailty. CDs are very convenient, that is their strength.

Naim needs the DVD5 to brand itself as an AV company. It will sell well in Europe where HDTV is way off in the future (broadcast standards have yet to be established). The USA is a different case. I can watch HD off the air, via digital cable, or off the satellite dish. A $4500.00 DVD player is a tough sell when there is so much HD available. Still, I think it is important that Naim establish themselves as a viable player in the AV market. I suspect the DVD5 will have some success, but it's greatest strength will be in establishing the brand.

Chris Bell

Amen.

Alex,

quote:

---

A LP is no where near as good as a CD as far as quality is concerned.

---

I'm guessing that you've heard these new-fangled turntables only through speakers that aren't analogue ready. To get the full benefit of this technology you have to use the right ancillary equipment. Accept no substitutes.

Joe

OK. let's see. LPs have limited frequency range, limited dynamics, limited resolutions compared to CDs. Or are you arguing with thta too? So,if both are made from the same master which should be superior in every way and none of them were downsampled or anything like that to reduce quality other than converting to the needed format (lossless) then there is no way a LP can beat a CD. It's simply not possible.
Of course you might prefer the sound of your turntable or you are not as perfectionist as you might like to believe and really don't care about clarity, resolution and all the PRaT thing as much as you would like to claim and simply and understandably want your music to sound soothing and warm and comfy. You just want it to sound the way you like it. But that's not objective. If you really want to discuss this and don't believe me, then send Naim an eMail or look up the data of both medias. It's not a small difference, it's huge. So don't you start a religious debate here which is founded on pure belief. That's like saying the Naim CD5 sounds better than any reference CDP available just because it's the Naim 5 series. It's b*llsh*t*.

Naim might be able to sell in Europe, but not to those who truly want best quality. Clearly anybody wanting best quality would import HD as soon as available and importing from the US really is no big deal. A HD player imported from the US will probably still cost you less than buying a DVD5 from your local dealer. If you clearly wanted best picture quality you would buy HD and nothing else. If you want best sound quality, well then the DVD5 is out of the race for CDs if you have anything superior to the CD5, it does not support SACDs and only supports DVD-A stereo. Well, great, so actually only Cds are supported in inferior quality to most of the people's systems (the ones that can afford this DVDP), and the only surround it supports is low quality DolbyDigital and DTS. Both limited in bitrates and inferior. So what's the point.
You can't get best picture quality (not even for the time being as HD on ordinary DVDs playable with PCs are available already) and you can't get best sound because the interesting formats (which I by the way don't use either due to high prices and the need of a new player) are not supported. Maybe you say DVD-A stereo is sufficient, but then clearly with a DVDP and in the AV section you do not belong at all.

HD will be available on PayTV as of November 05 and HD is available via satellite NOW from Euro1080 and AstraHD. Both still testing but Euro1080 actually working and planning on doing it properly. Unfortunatly for both not the technology is the problem, but actually the people so stuburn to think new medias are not superior and we don't need anything better. If it were up to those people, we would still be using analog sat systems if at all, we would be using cassette recorders instead of CD-Rs and we would be using Betamax instead of VCRs.

Technology develops and with it the quality. Whether you want to or not and the quality increases. If you want to live in a LP world, go ahead, but don't claim the quality is better of the media!!! That's plain stupid. If you can't find a CDP that beats your turntable, then not because your LPs are better than CDs but because either your CDs were authored poorly or because your CDP is crap.

My system is built by the belief that the speakers are a vital part of the setup. I don't believe in the "source first at all costs" philosophy. I need a pair of speakers that can cope with everything I feed them and with everything I put in front of them. My Allaes are absolutly fantastic. I could buy other cheap speaker or expensive ones but none can bring me what these do. They really show what my system is capable of. And the Technics player is hooked up to it via fibre optical cable. So the CDP actually has nothing to do but read out the data digitally and stream it directly to the AVR. So there is no loss there other than the jitter or errors that might be produced during reading. Something noen of you would be able to hear even if you would like to believe you could. A lot of you have finally understood that digital forwarding from the source means you lose almost nothing as the vital part of the digital chain is the DAC. Look at the "advent of HDD" thread. So it's all up to amps and speakers. The speakers are in already and can perform outragesly brilliant. I have compared AVRs (Pioneer, Denon, Marantz at home), Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo in stores and the Pioneer won. I compared the Pioneer to the Nait 3R and Nait 5i and the Pioneer won. The 3R clearly lost and the Nait 5i was kind of equal in direct mode but then lost it when really powerful albums came on and the Nait5i couldn't punsh for it's life. (Used the CD5 for that demo by the way! So no complaining about my Technics).

You see, I have demoed and I have found a Technics CDP hooked up digitally is better than a CD5,i,x hooked up analog. And most of you would confirm this if they were not so fixed on Naim's analog world. Some already have.

The vital factor hence are speakers and amps and the Naim amps supporting digital inputs....well the AV2. Now let's see. Oficially the AV2 is just about as good as the 112. Well, not to good to most standards and believes here, is it. So, what's the point. You can just as well buy simply the best DAC and spend less. Hook the DAC up to any poweramp you think sounds clean and pure and of you go.

It's not about what it says on the paper, it's about what's really possible and the facts are that digital connections are far better, LPs-CDs-DVDs-DVD-A/SACD-HD-DVD/Blu-Ray increase in quality in that order. You don't believe it, well then stay stereo bt don't argue about quality. Maximum quality is in that order. Whether you like it or not. And the vital part is the DAC when going from your digital source to the speakers. So almost any source with digital output will do the job. You don't believe it, do blind test. Use exactly the same setup and do a blind test. I bet you will not hear it unless the tester gives you hints or something is setup wrong. But you wouldn't believe it if you heard it for yourselves would you. That would be destroying your religion. Throw out your CDP, take the money, buy a cheap CDP with could jitter, error correction etc. and hook it up to a good DAC with your existing amps and speakers. See for yourself.

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quote:

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OK. let's see. LPs have limited frequency range, limited dynamics, limited resolutions compared to CDs. Or are you arguing with thta too? So,if both are made from the same master which should be superior in every way and none of them were downsampled or anything like that to reduce quality other than converting to the needed format (lossless) then there is no way a LP can beat a CD. It's simply not possible.

---

Alex's old son that is absolute balls! Where did you hear that LP's have a limited frequency range. It's the other way round, CD cut's off at 20KHz. Given a good turntable (no bearing rumble at the bottom end) and a quality arm with a full frequency response quality cartridge you can extract frequencies above 20 Khz from an LP.

Now don't start on about we can't hear anything above 20 KHz, that's been debated to death. We hear the harmonics of sound generated above 20Khz which are audible else supertweeters would not work, and they do. This brings extra musical information which adds a sense of dynamics CD just does'nt have. If you had ever heard an LP from a direct cut master on a quality TT you would not make the statement you have.

Please plaese get of this LP is crap thing especially here. You're onto a loser with that argument.

GEOFF

The boring old fart

Alex, with all respect, you sound a bit blinkered. I still use Vinyl and still prefer the sound. I have a pink triangle export tt which cost me approx £1500 twelve years ago, it still sounds fantastic and has rivalled every CD player I've had, why is this ? The majority of people probably haven't heard how good Vinyl can sound. Then again, alot of people decide that a hi-fi sounds good if it produces plenty of bass.

Digital is an attempt to reproduce an analog sound and they're still trying to get it right. How long will it take for them to produce something that rivals the best TT's ? A long time yet.

What happened to HDCD and its' claims btw ? And what's coming after blu-ray ? You're going to immediately subscribe to its' amazing quality aswell ? You seem to be so caught up in the buzzwords and the bandwagon, just the type of consumer they like to target. Listen with your ears, not your eyes.

Your claim that 'even a technics CDP will beat any LP' baffles me. This is based on experience ?

Alex,

There is no doubt as to your convictions on this subject but your last post became IMO little short of a rant towards the end. One might argue that you were trying to start a little 'religion' yourself!

If nothing else, however, your arguments do raise an interesting point, namely what we mean by sound 'quality', or what we mean when we judge that one medium 'sounds better' or 'has better sound quality' than another.

You argue, forcefully, that CD sounds better than LP. This would appear to me to deny the decades of accumulated knowledge gained across the hifi world accompanied by acres of magazine coverage that suggest the contrary. So what leads you to make such bold, some might say rather arrogant, suggestions?

I would contend that just as your opinion on this matter is just that, an opinion, and therefore entirely subjective, so each of us individually have our own ideas, senses, perceptions and interpretations of what sounds good. This could be determined by many different factors, but one of these might be the priorities we allocate to different aspects or means of music reproduction.

For you, Alex, the priority for you is absolute digital accuracy (with allowances for jitter, etc). So IMHO all you are really saying is that if a CDP can pick up all the 1's or 0's on a CD and send them to your speakers with as little lost as possible, then it must sound better than any turntable.

However others, myself included, might contend that there is a great deal more to 'sound quality' than mere lossless digital reproduction. Here it is entirely down to our own individual perception of what sounds good. Sure, LP may lack the absolute (digital) accuracy that CD can provide, but for many of us, that just doesn't matter.

Regards,

JonR

Alex,

I don't mean to be rude, but you really don't have a good handle on this. Many people here have been into the hi-fi hobby for years -- even decades -- and the overwhelming consensus of opinion is that turntables are better at playing music than CD players, particularly if you match sources dollar for dollar.

I would be thrilled if CD players were better, but the fact is I had to spend $2500 on a used CD player (because I couldn't afford it new) to find one I could even enjoy. Every other player I tried just didn't cut the mustard because I had been spoiled by having a good turntable for many years.

I don't buy the "digital is more accurate than analogue and that's why you don't like CDs more than LPs" argument. It suggests that I'd rather listen to a source that's warm and fuzzy than one that's accurate and detailed. I want a source that's good at reproducing music, and a good turntable sounds more like live music than a good CD player does. That's why I -- and countless others -- prefer turntables.

Joe

No! My point is as follows:

We all know sound is defined by it's frequencies and dynamics. Right. Or at least that's the main part. (timing etc. are another, but no one here will honestly argue a turntabel has better timing!).

So, the frequencies you can put onto a CD go from 20 to 20kHz and have a dynamic range of 96dB. DVD-Videos have same frequency range but dynamic range of 120dB. A DVD-A can even handle 140dB(!!!) and 0-96kHz and supports lossless compression!

Dynamics of a LP are about 40dB and an absolute max. of 60dB!!! That's half of the dynamics available froma DVD-Video Disc!!! You cannot argue that the dynamic capabilities of any media are essential especially to jazz and classic! Vital!

The only advantage of a LP is that theoretically it could go up to 50kHz, so higher than the ordinary CD. Unfortunatly everything above the 20KHz is not audible, but let'S just imagine you could "feel" it. In this case, yes the LP would have an advantage but compared to the lack of dynamics this is marginal!

Seriously, this is not just theory. IF you really listen carefully you will find the dynamics missing. A,what's it called in english a "Pauke" (the big thing which kind of replaces drums in an orchestra....arg...can't remember) already has a dynamic range of 60dB which already exceeds the average LP and can only just be stored onto extraordinary quaity LPs.

No matter how good your turntable is, it won't give you dynamics not recorded onto the disc.

Of course, every media has it's advantages, but arguable, the CD is superior to the LP and the DVD-A beats both by far!

Is there any argument missing here?

Klavier 45dB
Klarinette 50dB
Horn 50dB
Posaune 50dB
Pauke 60dB
Orgel 45dB

human voice:

Sopran 55dB
Tenor 50dB

The human ear can tell a 0,25dB difference. And if you now think, that your LP in reality has dynamics of about 40dB, almost all instruments and voices are cut off whereas the CD effectivly reaches dynamics of about 80dB. The frequencies however of natural instruments hardly ever if at all exceed the 20kHz line. So, what would you say would make the difference here?

And please, analog is not a discussion point here. As Nyquist has proven, any signal can be perfectly reproduced if your frequency is twice the maximum frequency of your source. f(A)>= 2*f(max) . So it's quite easy to not lose any detail but extremly hard to get rid off any noise produced by a turntable. No noise on CDs.

So, if looked at objectivly, a CD is superior to a LP and a DVD-A or SACD beats everything else by far!!! Now, let's hear your arguments for your LP. Other than imagination.

One last thing. The main difference between live and at home is not the frequency range but the dynamic range.

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[This message was edited by Alex B. on Sat 18 September 2004 at 14:00.]

[This message was edited by Alex B. on Sat 18 September 2004 at 14:05.]