Well, most of you probably know what my answer to this is and I know what most of you are going to answer. But maybe we should discuss this anyway and maybe Naim have something to say for themselves.

I think, releasing the DVD5 is a mistake. It's simply too late. Releasing it now makes sense as far as they have worked on it and before dumping the whole work, they can just as well throw it onto the market and hope the faithful Naimees will buy despite all the new upcoming and highly advanced technologies. The DVD5 has no extra features, supports ahrdly any formats other than DVD and CD. It does not even support DVD-A and SACD.
It's a plain simply DVD player which claims to have awesome picture and sound.

As most f you have also admitted by now, the sound is mainly down to the DAC and hence, using a digital output into any AVR you love (be it Naim or whatever) will result in almost always the exact same sound. Solely depending on your amps and hardly the DVDP.

Picture quality. Well, as HD is coming real fast and discs are available already and so are TVs and projectors, DVDs only hope of surviving the next one or two years are the slow europeans who simply seem to hate new stuff and rather stick to what they've got. Hence HD will only be released in the US and Asia beginning of the next year.
But the picture quality is about 6 times as good as the quality of ordinary DVDs. So, what's the point in buying a DVD5 which has only just become available, if you could probably spend less in 6 months and get 6 times the picture quality.

Makes no sense, does it? Or can anybody here seriously claim he would be buying the DVD5 for sound quality. If you have that much cash, you surely own a Naim CDP and all CDPs bigger than the 5series are supposed to be better in quality. So that's not a point. For DVD sound, well as long as DVD-A and SACD are not implemented, they quality of the discs themselves is not high enough to make that big a difference in DVDPs. One would better spend the cash on a good DAC or AVR.

Now they have released a new speaker, the Ariva. Said to be for AV, but that does not make sense as it is no better nor worse to position than the Intro 2s or Credos or Allaes or whatever are. Sound, well, I guess that's up to you whether you like it or not. Let's say the Ariva was not intended to add to the AV range.

Now Naim is releasing subwoofers and apparently satellites. This is nice but does seem strange. I always got the impression that Naim didn't think it was possible to build subs and sats good enough to carry the Naim logo. I personally like the idea but prefer the floorstanders. Plus if they are of same standard as the Arivas, then I would rather not buy them as the resolution to me is what makes a Naim speaker a Naim speaker. Arivas lack resolution and tightness.

The only thing Naim did a great job on were the Axent and Axess. Unluckily they both are slightly oversized and especially the big brother slightly overpriced. But that's not an issue here, I know.


So, if Naim continues down the AV road, how will they be able to continue producing stereo gear at the quality they have been? They have not grown nor become super rich, so their work still needs to be concentrated. Otherwise the quality will suffer. But if they continue going AV, they will have to go digital soon, or will they wait until the next revolutions comes by and release and old fashioned interface? But what justification will the existing CDPs have. If you go digital, you won't hear the difference between CDPs anymore but only between preamps. So what was all this work for if the digital interfaces have been around for years they could have gone all digital a long time ago and concentrated on producing preamps with aesome DACs and simply give us a 200bucks CDP so our racks don't get intruded by some ugly CDP.

I don't want to insult Naim, but I would really like someone to comment and maybe tell me where they are going. And do they really believe that releasing a DVDP now was a wise choice other than getting rid of something they were working on for so long and at least getting some money out of it? If they had at least waited another 6months and integrated DVD-A, SACD and either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, it would have been worth buying, but now, what's the point.

I seriously can't see where Naim is going. The stuff they're releasing is very interesting for me as a AV lover, but the prices are not and I must admitt that I am getting the feeling that maybe Naim has stopped really making everything at the high standards they used to and rather produce as good as possible for the stuff produced. I'd rather them not making something if the quality simply cannot be achieved either in that price region or in that method.

Feel free to beat me up, but please serioulsy think about what I wrote and tell me what you really think. Please, don't just trust in Naim to always do the right thing just because they are the best stereo make in the world. Answer me freely. If you like all the products, fine, but were they sensible (especially the DVD5) and shouldn't Naim maybe stop throwing three different series 5 amps and players on the market and rather make one proper one and maybe remember developing higher level speakers and amps and not only lower level ones. The own the Intro 2s and Allaes and the only step upwards I can take is a pair of SL2s. the DBLs are to old and have not been redone, so there is only one more speaker left. Maybe another top speaker would be more interesting than lots of different entry level stuff. And maybe it would be better to release some ground breaking equipment instead of always staying on the safe side and waiting until it's too late (DVD5). I know they haven't got the cash to just go with every new fashion, but seriously, not keeping up with AV means not selling, at least not to people who really are into AV and wnat real quality.

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Alex
You ask for an answer and, to certain points, you perhaps deserve one.
Before I consider the sensible points of your post I will just deal with the wrong.

The DVD5 has no extra features, supports ahrdly any formats other than DVD and CD. It does not even support DVD-A and SACD.
As has been pointed out to you – the DVD5 will support DVD-A. Do you claim that investing in SACD replay would re-position us at the cutting edge – do you confidently predict that SACD is going to be the medium of choice for music reproduction?

It's a plain simply DVD player which claims to have awesome picture and sound.
No, it isn’t as it doesn’t yet exist – anything you have seen or heard is pre-production and, while interesting, clearly has not represented the level of performance that we are prepared to accept for production. Before being released it will have to satisfy us that it has performance advantages that make it a product of which we can be proud.

Picture quality. Well, as HD is coming real fast and discs are available already and so are TVs and projectors, DVDs only hope of surviving the next one or two years are the slow europeans who simply seem to hate new stuff and rather stick to what they've got. Hence HD will only be released in the US and Asia beginning of the next year.
And then I imagine that VHD (Very High Definition) will soon appear, closely followed by SHTRD (Slightly Higher Than Reality Definition). Unfortunately for these formats it is hoped that some of the record number of DVD player buyers (fastest take up of a new technology, etc) will want to do something with the DVD disks they have bought.
Similarly – CD now represents a “mature” technology – with the twin characteristics of finally being able to give real pleasure (quality) and therefore needing to be immediately replaced with some theoretically better technology that will sound just dire for several years until replaced with the next “good” idea.

Now they have released a new speaker, the Ariva. Said to be for AV,
While you could use the Ariva for AV – it was intended to be the new entry level speaker that addressed set-up problems that had worked against shop demonstrations of our previous ranges and impacted on sales.

I don't want to insult Naim,
Strangely, Alex, you are.
It is difficult to understand quite what your point is. You seem to have disliked most of the Naim equipment that you have heard that is within your budget. You seem impressed with the more expensive models but do not write much about why nor what impressed.

So, if Naim continues down the AV road, how will they be able to continue producing stereo gear at the quality they have been? They have not grown nor become super rich, so their work still needs to be concentrated. Otherwise the quality will suffer. But if they continue going AV, they will have to go digital soon, or will they wait until the next revolutions comes by and release and old fashioned interface? But what justification will the existing CDPs have. If you go digital, you won't hear the difference between CDPs anymore but only between preamps. So what was all this work for if the digital interfaces have been around for years they could have gone all digital a long time ago and concentrated on producing preamps with aesome DACs and simply give us a 200bucks CDP so our racks don't get intruded by some ugly CDP.
So much nonsense is contained in this paragraph. The golden dawn of everything sounding the same when digital comes (again?) just will not be achieved. You ask for a Naim cosmetic cd drive to feed you super DAC – would you like it to have a 3 point leaf spring, pin and cup suspension or a PC tray mech? Weirdly there is a difference.

And maybe it would be better to release some ground breaking equipment instead of always staying on the safe side and waiting until it's too late (DVD5). I know they haven't got the cash to just go with every new fashion, but seriously, not keeping up with AV means not selling, at least not to people who really are into AV and wnat real quality.
You obviously missed the NA8 (Eight track tape player) and NABet (Betamax VCR). It really depends if you listen to technology with your ears or just eyes. Good specifications must be better than old tech – it’s just a pity that it so seldom delivers what it has to promise.

I seriously can't see where Naim is going.
You got that right.
The development of the DVD5 has been, among other things, a necessary preparation for a possible future. Our interest as a company is primarily in 2 channel music and the pleasure that listening to recorded music reproduced believably can bring to our lives. The digital environment within the DVD player has defeated many when it comes to including half decent cd replay. The introduction of pulse mode power supplies has had a detrimental effect on systems sharing the same ring main. We don’t use one. There will come a time when the large manufactures decide CD mechanisms aren’t worth making. There is a future out there that we are making informed guesses about.

Please, don't just trust in Naim to always do the right thing just because they are the best stereo make in the world.
Strangely, I would put some trust in Naim “doing the right thing”. We may make mistakes but we are neither cynical nor opportunistic. We are always late to the party but always bring something interesting and unique. Some people like what we do – some don’t. We can live with that.
What I find unacceptable is having someone with no apparent interest in Naim’s future using the forum for a constant stream of negative comments. There are several debates to be had about products, direction, etc. but you are not the person to lead them.

Since it's Friday... all I can ask in response is 'Why if AV performance is so important to you, is the equipment you use still under your sofa?'

Geoff

Resonance damping?

Like the CD, DVD caught everyone's imagination and consumer investment followed. No new format, however good is going to kick CD or DVD off it's perch. To that end I will always be in the market for players of each format - and only those formats - don't want a jack-of-all-trades that doesn't do anything brilliantly. I'd never buy a DVD 5. £500 is my top whack for a DVD player. Anything higher wouldn't be justified in this household and would be spent on Hi Fi, cars or something else.

How many LP12s were sold in the last 5 years? Whatever it was defies the laws of physice if you believed Sony and Phillips in 1984. Yes there is new technology out there and in the pipe - but that's where it ends. I'm not obliged to buy it. This is marketing. Not fact nor the ability to see the future.

Cheers

Harry

Err Alex...the DVD5 does support DVD-A, unless there's been a last-minute spec-change...?

If you do go for a DVD5, don't buy one of the early ones. I bought one of the first AV2's and spent ages thinking it was faulty until I found it had old software on it.

Andy

quote:

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Originally posted by JonR:
Err Alex...the DVD5 does support DVD-A, unless there's been a last-minute spec-change...?

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I think they would have included SACD support, too, if it could have been made to sound half decent.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.

Andy

Whilst that may of been true of your own AV2, I would not think that was logically going to happen with any other Naim product, besides some people like to be first!

Regards
Geoff

At the time there were some who felt that naim were late in producing their first cd player.

They took their time, understood ALL the technical aspects and arrived at a thoroughly unique and 'naim like' solution (separate ps / internal dac etc). The cds1 still sounds bloody great today, over a decade since launch. The knowledge gained at the time has served them very well and has formed the basis of the creation of a family of really great players. I am lucky enough to own a cds3 and have to say that it takes cd replay to places I never thought possible.

Instead of offering up a 'me to' badged up apology they are taking their time and doing it right. No doubt, as in the case of cd, this hard work will form the basis of the R&D of many great products in the years to come. I think that sometimes we need reminding that they are a very compact research team and have had to go up the curve of processing visual digital data from scratch.

It will take a lot to shake off DVD as it is tremendously popular and software sales are growing at a rate any other format would dream about. Naim have time to earn a repayment on their work.

Naim's approach and derived solutions to AV is very much in keeping with their track record of ensuring that 2 channel musical priorities of a system are never compromised. It is a lot of wonga but from my brief exposure to it , the dvd5 was delivering VERY high quality picture and sound. As with everything, the individual decides if that quality level justifies the outlay.

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin Payne:

I think they would have included SACD support, too, if it could have been made to sound half decent.

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They probably couldn't afford the software licence.

They're definitely in a limited market there. I might buy one when I consider a home theatre, but (as you may have seen from other threads) I'm going to wait for the next generation of digital delivery before spending megabucks on a new source. DVD5 is out for me, too.

We'll always need high quality pre and power amps, so I have no problems buying Naim gear for that. Speakers are a whole other story, and I agree that Naim's mid-to-high range offerings are seriously lacking.

Count me in as another dedicated Naim customer who would like to hear their long-term position before buying in any further.

Graham

DVD-A is included, yes, but I would have liked to see both.

CD and DVDs are two completely different developments. CD was the first digital media and as such a huge jump from LPs. But very expensive at the time and the people were even more afraid of new technologies than they are nowadays.

@HTK: If you think DVD is the best you can get or could want, then clearly you have never seen anything in HD. If you seriously have seen an HD presentation and still think DVD is worth it's money, then you seriously need to rethink your expectations of high quality. That's like comparing a VHS to DVD. Worlds apart.

@Simon: Well, true, Naim took their time introducing their CDP but that was at a time were digital media was a whole new world and progress was made extremly slowly. Nowadays, especially in AV the world moves much faster. Waiting for 5-10years before releasing your first player is plain useless.

And by the time the DVD5 is properly onto the market, it will already be old useless kit. It's as tough you would buy a cassette recorder now, knowing a CDP is on it's way very soon.

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Alex, ever heard Iggy Pop's Blah Blah Blah?

Alex there is a serious flaw in your argument.

the DVD5 is superb.

The same pointless rigamarole with Alex B? Yawn.

Hi,

I've just got rid of my video collection and replaced with DVD's, so I certainly hope that DVD isn't 'old useless kit', that would really piss me off.

What really bothers me is that there are that many new products and formats being released that I can't help but think 'is this for the good of the consumer' or is it just because of the marketing cycle, the one that says they need to release something new every x years.

DVD players are still being released into the market by the mainstream manufacturers, so how can naim be too late ? Their kit it high end and it will appeal to some, probably not to all. I don't think I'd invest unless I had a serious high end home cinema with the finest screen money could buy.

I'm currently thinking about buying an LCD screen and it really pisses me off (again) that some sets come with High Definition built in and others don't, despite the fact that it won't come into use on satellite for a while yet. Like the PC, it seems the lifecycle one should expect from products is a couple of years, and then it's time to spend again. Is it any wonder that europeans are not as quick to adopt new technology, perhaps they are just more intelligent and not as quick to jump on the bandwagon, and line the pockets of the big boys.

I am happy for progress to be made in order that I can experience the best possible, but I won't continually chase to catch up with the latest, only to find a new format is on the way that walks all over the one I've just invested in.

I'll be happy with CD, DVD and Vinyl for a while yet.

My opinion on this is:

1) Naim does outstanding Stereo pre & power and CDP's They all sit in the Analog world which Naim is expert at.

2) I agree DVD replay will be around for a long time to come. They have just announced that over 200 million DVD's were sold worldwide. Other formats will come but once you've bought the DVD's you are going to want to keep playing them

3) When it comes to digital processing, and here I'm talking about the DSP process for both sound and picture, like the vast majority of others, Naim is using OTHER PEOPLES IC's. The same IC's are in DVD players from the likes of Denon which deliver is a serious way at less than 1/4tr of the proposed cost of the DVD5 and include DVD-A (full surround not just stereo) and SACD.

4)I have seen a DVD5 picture and heard the sound of a DVD5 through an all Naim surround system (AV2 included). It is good BUT it is not better than the progressive scan component ouput I get from my Denon 2900. On the sound front, again it was good but not in any noticeable way better for Movie sound than my non-AV2 processed system with Naim amping in it. In my case it's driven by a SONY AV processor. The combined cost of the Denon & Sony I mentioned was 1,200 GBP. That is really tough competition for the combined cost of the DVD5 & AV2. I know you are all going to say how great the DVD5 and AV2 can be but the competition eat's them on price-performance just because it comes so close to the same sound & picture quality that the difference is minimal.

5) I have to agree Alex has a point. The whole AV thing is a tough battleground where I think NAIM is in danger of spending too much development money for too little return. It needs the scale, speed of development and low cost volume manufacturing that the likes of Sony, Denon & Pioneer can acheive to fight in this market. I wish it were different but that's the way it is.

regards
GEOFF

The boring old fart

Interesting discussion. I've not seen any HDTV but if what I read is to be believed then it knocks DVD into a cocked hat.

However the consumer market moves notoriously slowly. The industry can force a certain amount of change by simply not supporting the older formats but this doesn't make them any money (as people will refuse to budge just for the sake of it) so they won't push too hard! If you look at how long CDs, then DVDs really took to become entrenched in the consumer consciousness I think it's fair to assume DVDs will be with us for a few years yet.

As to what Naim are doing in the AV space - good question. I bought an AV2 as I wanted a good, all-round solution. One box that would sound equally good as either a music preamp or an AV preamp. Plus, I got a good price from my dealer. If I already had a good music preamp it would have been a harder sell - I don't think it's worth the asking price just as an AV decoder.

It's the same story with the DVD5. If I could persuade myself it was a CD player and DVD player upgrade in one box, and *if* it had played everything else I could throw at it then I might have auditioned it. As it is, I've decided that as a DVD player it's beyond justification so that one's off the list.

So, I guess most of you don't feel offended and understand what I'm trying to say.

About the DVD being around for a while. Well, I doubt it and seriously hope they will be extinct within two or three years, at least in the USofA and Asia. DVDs already have gone done in prices. Brand new releases cost 15€ and older movies (still great ones like Johnny Mnemonic, Throw Mama off the Train but also Waterworld and what have you not) just cost 4 €. And those are the prices in the US and Canada.

As soon as HD is on the market other there I reckon the new HD media will start somewhere around the 20-30€ price tag and will drop dramatically as soon as a variety of players is on the market and especially as soon as Europe finally makes a jump into our millennium and gets into serious HT (not HD ). In America as some of you might know, recording of shows in HD format is a law. TV stations have to record a certain amount of HD programs.
But in Europe hardly any station is able to broadcast HDTV. Finally, Premiere (germany's "Sky") is going to start with three HDTV station end of 2005! By then, HD DVDs will have been flodding the AV market even in Germany. At least the ones like me, who seriously are into HT, not necessarily with the big cash but the big love, will buy HD media as soon as available and affordable by any means. I have stop buying DVDs anyway as I know what's coming. And I wouldn't buy a projector nor new player now as I know what's coming.


I admitt that Naim have done great work with their analog gear, but unfortunatly, analog is the past. They should rather build the worlds first awesome fully digital amplifier. Preamps will also become more and more dependent on he DACs and not the manufacturer of the final product as the DAC, due to all digital streaming will be the most important component. CDPs and DVDPs will only be worth anything if they have digital outputs, or at least that would be what costumers should be buying. If a Naim CDP has no digital output, then you will be stuck with it and it's quality, meaning you will have to upgrade CDP and most likely pre and poweramps. If they were digital, you would only need new preamps whenever you are fed up with your sound.

And no matter what, Naim makes great speakers....but lately, I must say I wouldn't be able to upgrade my speakers with Naim speakers simply because the range is almost completly entry level now. Ariva, Intro2, Credo are all entry level, Allae are mid class and SL2 is mid to uppe class. No really high class speaker, no alternative speaker to the Allaes. I find that quite dissapointing as I feel the speakers are a vital point.

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