To balance out the advice given so far, there are some things Mana cannot do:

Mana can't make a weak power amp more powerful - it can increase an amps dynamism and detail, but sometimes a new box is the only answer.

Also, Mana can't add facilities - you might crave the ability to monitor different sources that the 52 gives.

What Mana does do is enhance the characteristics of the gear you place upon it - always in a more musical fashion. Thus, limitations of gear seem to be dissolved somewhat and the true nature of equipment is able to shine through. It also assists sources in the music retrieval and focuses the inner detail and dynamics of the music.

You get a lot of these improvements from better sources and amps, but Mana can give equivalent improvements for a whole lot less; also, when you do upgrade your boxes to better ones, they will sound that bit better still, on Mana...

HTH,

John

Try a 102... it is a vast improvment over your 92 and has many upgrade options (ie NAPSC, Hi-Cap). This will bring more music to your system then any rack.

I had nothing but bad experices with Mana Acoustics products. I found they hyped up the music and made everything go out of tune. In the end I found the sound boring and unlistenable. Receintly a friend are having great fun replacing mana racks with target. The results are astonishing: More tune, more music, more Naim.

This is just my opinion and many others will call me a heritic and burn me at the stake. Oh well, at least i'll die knowing my system is in tune.

Good luck. Demo the racks and the 102 and report back. Hi-fi is very subjective and in the end, only your ears will know the difference. Just be sure to follow all of the basic Naim tweaks before spending money on upgrades.

Chris Bell

Your system is constrained by the 92. Whilst adding a *cap to it will lift its performance, it is still fundamentally a bit coarse as a preamp. The 102 is a natural mate to the 180, both in terms of sonic signature and aesthetics. I'm not sure if your budget can stretch to a used 102, but this is where I would focus on first. Later, when funds permit, you can add the NAPSC and a Hicap to make the 102 sing properly.

James

Resistance is Futile

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My system comprises of Nac92,Nap180,CDX and Epos15 standmount speakers (similar to Epos12 in build and sound ).

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Which equipment rack(s) / speaker stands are you currently using? Other details?

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With most types of music the above system performs well however with classical music (mostly orchestras) the sound can be distant and slightly mirky. Ideally I am seeking an upgrade which will bring better resolution and a wider soundstage to the music.

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Sadly, the days have passed when classical recordings (in general) could be considered as benchmarks in either performance or sound quality--the older, often the better. Make comparisons only with music that you know well, rather than with that which should sound good.

quote:

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Alas my financial limit stretches only to £600.00 so any exotic upgrade which will bring obvious improvement to the sound is out of the question. However I have read rave reviews about the effects of Mana gear used with Naim components but that is literature direct from the makers in Pinner.

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I presume you're located in the U.K., though your name seems quite familiar...at the minimum, if you did choose to try Mana stands, you'd definitely want a separate Sound Table for your CD player, and an Amplifier Stand for your other components (shorter height is better, though you'll probably want to expand your system later). If you're not located in the U.K., though, your budget may be more constrained, export pricing considered.

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Should I try out Naim upgrades (eg Flatcap or Hicap) or gamble on purchasing the Mana racks ( I understand that Mana can only be bought but not tested?). I would be grateful for any advice or guidance from fellow music lovers who are very familiar with the above mentioned upgrades.

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Regardless of what you choose, the description you give sounds like a system setup issue. Start with the basics: decent power is one factor to get sorted out from the beginning. If you are concerned that your existing stand / rack(s) arrangement is at fault, move your gear to the floor (works best with hard floor surfaces)--this will validate whether your existing setup is killing the music or not...

Never make any simultaneous changes to your system; rather, try one tweak / adjustment at a time, such that you get ot know how small changes affect (and how) overall system performance.

As Chris Bell suggests above, I might recommend an eventual NAC 102 (perhaps with NA PSC supply) trade-up, as it is likely that your NAC 92 preamplifier may perhaps be a limiting factor in the performance of your current system only when fully optimized.

A (-n optional) power supply is best added when its subsequent increase in performance can be resolved without opening up the system to reveal faults in setup or inadequate source material.

Hope this helps,
Dave Dever, NANA

[This message was edited by David Dever, NANA on TUESDAY 06 March 2001 at 00:34.]

But it's your easr, and your money.

Phil
Not enamored of the Mana effect, but probably did the set up wrong

There are many usefull set-up tips at the following web site:

http://www.matthew-robinson.com/

Check it out and make sure you have experimented with all that apply to your situation before you go spend money on racks or gear. Let us know how things turn out.

Best,

Chris Bell

PS: There are plenty of used 102s out there!

More QS More QS!

Personal experience...I've recently discovered how my existing mid-range stand was absolutely crippling the music fom my cds2. That's a cdp with "sophisticated suspension systems". I knew stand wasn't ideal with the previous cdx, but didn't fully appreciate how degrading it was.... the reason "stand zealots" seem to sing "hallelujah I've found God" stories is because good supports DO TOTALLY TRANSFORM SYSTEMS musically in a very fundamental way - or bad stands degrade systems so easily in a TOTALLY UN-MUSICAL way.

With classical .. huge improvements in the midrange "filling out" and coming a lot forward, a sense of flow and fullness, "music in the air". String quartets and solo piano now sound like REAL full-bodied live instruments in the room, in a totally different way than ever before.

There are a number of good multi-layer contenders - Mana, Hutter, Base seem obvious "first tier" contenders. Until you get your naim's operating OPTIMALLY, spending more money = wasting more money. Sure it will get better but it won't sing and dance, and you'll end up still dissatisfied in your core..

Without a good neutral stand you could end up making other "2 wrongs don't make a right" decisions - like changing speakers 'cos your system sounds shouty, or lacks bass - and then later discover it was a side-effect of poor eqpt supports..

[This message was edited by Peter Chappell on TUESDAY 06 March 2001 at 06:15.]

vik

quote:

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...as it is likely that your NAC 92 preamplifier may perhaps be a limiting factor in the performance of your current system only when fully optimized.

A (-n optional) power supply is best added when its subsequent increase in performance can be resolved without opening up the system to reveal faults in setup or inadequate source material.

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the best way to upgrade is to ensure that your current system is sounding at its best, through proper set up, which may or may not involve exotic supports, depending on your room, and other million variables. if you have a good dealer (big IF i know), he can advise of what the weakest link in your optimized system is, and therefore identify an optimal updrage route. it also depends where you want to end up.

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Mana can't make a weak power amp more powerful - it can increase an amps dynamism and detail, but sometimes a new box is the only answer.

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oh man, how refreshing...

enjoy...

ken

I have a 72,hicap, 250, Rotel 971, and B&W N805s. I must admit that I was also intrigued by the Mana/Hutter hype. I am still planning to purchase an 82 as soon as possible, but ordered the mana 4tier and sound stage with 30 day money back guarantee. Vic, I don't know if you or anyone elses setup would benefit the way mine did from a stand upgrade. It is usually easy to describe sonic changes derived from an equipment upgrade. You know, the bass impact improved, better inner detail, quiter quiets etc.... With the addition of a first rate stand, in this case MAna, my system has been completely transformed. Now when I add my 82 or upgrade my source I am confident that I will hear them at their best.

Lance

I just recently acquired the 3-tier Mana equipment stand upon which I have placed on the center tier the 82 and the bottom tier the CDX. My older IKEA wall system rack maintains the power supplies and the amp as well as the tuner (2 HiCaps for the 82, XPS for the CDX, 250 and the 02).

This Mana contributed more to better bass combination presentation and proper ordering and timing of soparano and alto voices than did when I added the XPS. So, I would rank my improvements contributions over the past year in this order: 82 (by much magnitude), CDX, Mana, XPS.

Let's see my Mana was just under $1K, the XPS ~$4K. There's a message from my experience.

I have on order a 5-tier Mana and two Sound Stages for under each rack.

When I am home and free to relax I listen to my kit all the time now. I did turn the TV on once to check out the snow storm.

Take my few grains of salt, sprinkle it on the banquet, and assimilate your own conclusions.

Cli

[This message was edited by Clifton Talley on TUESDAY 06 March 2001 at 15:06.

[This message was edited by Clifton Talley on TUESDAY 06 March 2001 at 15:08.]

Xeppy.

It adds insult to injury when you brag like this and remind everyone how profitable it is to be part of a boy band.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on TUESDAY 06 March 2001 at 16:53.]

Obviously, this is going to make a significant sonic difference, increasing resolution at certain frequencies, but does it truly increase musicality at all levels?

When you upgraded with the XPS, this was before the system was set up ideally; hence, one might infer that the XPS might have increased the resolution of the system, making the upgrade a mixed bag, if the whole system was being degraded by poor setup, and you were resolving some distortion from the setup. See Dave Dever's comments on this. Inbalances can be very problematic, and require a lot of experience to track down.

What would be interesting would be to take the XPS out of the system and see if the loss is more meaningful, and the gain from its replacement also more meaningful now-more meaningful than the rack was.

The order in which you do things matters a lot.

In all of my experiments with Mana, I have found it lacking to a great degree if compared with good racks that are much simpler and much cheaper. I have always done this with other people around, many who doubted this possibility, but they always came away with a very different view than they started with.

This is because we started with a perfectly set up system in the first place.

Many people like Mana because, when they go to set it up, they take the time to do a good job with the setup, sometimes for the first time. Other mistakes are often fixed in the process.

Better systems reward good setups, and punish mistakes.

Again, by improving the stand, you could finally hear all the good things about all the purchases you had made, like the XPS.

I do believe that there are stands for a fraction of the price of Mana that do not go out of tune, sound better in my experience, and sometimes look better.

I don't believe that most of you want something that goes out of tune, and it does. Systems should not be moved around all the time to retune shelves-this introduces wear, tear and the opportunity to make mistakes in setup which can damage wires and equipment. And, as it goes out of tune, you get to hear this slow degredation, like tubes. Always sliding downhill.

chris

ps: I still like the ref table with the LP12, which occasionally goes out of tune too, so when you take it to the jig from time to time, it gives you the opportunity to then tune the Mana table. Still, the Linn likes Mana, for whatever reason.

C Koster

As I see it, I am sure a lot of people who have invested a lot of their hard-earned money into the Naim sound feel cheated that they could have achieved as good (if not better) sound from supposedly lesser models, on Mana supports. No wonder there is resistance. Perhaps you are the arbiter of conservatism within the brand, someone who maintains the status quo to further the Naim cause at the expense of other brands.

I like Naim kit, don't get me wrong, and I have heard Naim on and off Mana for a while now. It always sounds better on Mana to my ears. Period.

However, I will concede your point about ensuring kit is setup properly - after all, with gear of the performance levels of Naim, it makes sense to spend time getting everything right. However, to not use a quality support such as Mana is to throw away a lot of the musicality that is the unanimous goal (I hope).

When I read your posts, I often wonder what it is that you have against Mana, the company, to be so berating of their class-leading products. Do you get a kick out of it?

John

Just curious to work out what makes you tick. Maybe you prefer the dull sounds of Quadraspire or the chaosium of Target? To each his (or her) own...

John

In this instance Chris is absolutely correct, I would fully expect an XPS on a poorly set up system to be less of an upgrade that the re-installation of a poorly optimsed system using Mana stands.

Having said all that if Clifton now removed the XPS from his system he would fully understand the magnitude of the upgrade and may change his opinion.

As for Chris's opinion on the tunefulness of Mana supported systems, it is his viewpoint and reflects his musical priorites. This is to be respected.

Chris's other comments about proper setup and moving components around are the best I have read for a long time and concurs with my experiences.

The problem with many opinions expressed here, and yours as I read it, is that they tend to view changes as 'absolutes' and as the final answer while in reality it is the careful and optimised installation of the whole system that leads to the best musical rewards.

regards

Dev.