Dear all,

You may have seen my report on CD players a short while ago where I reviewed the CD12, CDS-II, CDX and Marantz SA-1. You may also recall that the CD12 came out as the winner. Since my making the decision to go for the CD12 I had a demo of the Wadia 860x and also niggling doubts that I was making the right decision. My system was a 52/Supercap into 250 into Ninka. I am a die-hard vinyl junky and my LP12 will go with me to the grave. My quest was to find a CD player that would give me as much enjoyment as the best in vinyl on my LP12.
My doubts led me to invite my dealer to my house and bring with him a pair of Nautilus 804 and the CDS-II and CD12. I was determined to close this once and for all. The Wadia that I listened to was sweet but didn't get to the final two because I am concerned about the stability of the company. So the battle commenced with the CD12 and CDS-II destined to become part of my hi-fi. The first thing that became clear is that I needed to dump my Ninka and replace them with the 804. If you haven't already heard these then you need to pop down to your local B&W dealer and give them a try. The 804 is a very good speaker with a very neutral response. The hi-hat suddenly became very real and the annoying bass resonance of the Ninka disappeared.
This meant that I was now beginning to change my priorities. Nevertheless I was determined to give both players a good test. We started with UB40's "Kingston Town". The CDS-II was great but the CD12 was a little better. Then we moved on to Coldplay's "Everything's not lost". I would say that both players were about equal here. We then tried some very heavy organ music that one of my colleagues listens to. Here was the surprise. The CDS-II shamed the CD12. The Linn played the music accuratley but where was the reality of it? The Naim, however, played the music and we all (pro-CD12 dealer included) concluded that the Naim won this easily. And so on went the tests and the CD12 and CDS-II were both great. Some contests went to the Linn and some went to the Naim. I then came to the conclusion that I would be a fool to spend £12,000 on the CD12 when the CDS-II is only £5900. When I was learning to become an electronic engineer, a very wise lecturer told me that "an engineer can design something for a penny that any fool can design for a pound". The Linn is good but so is the Naim. Come on Linn get this great little CD player down to the right price level. In the meantime, I've got the CDS-II playing into my 804's. Trouble is that the 250 is now struggling to drive 8 drive units. Oh well I guess with the money I've saved on not buying the Linn, I can get myself another 250!

Nigel,
Do I understand that you were prepared to pay up to 12000 pounds for a CD player and you limited your auditions to Naim, Linn and Marantz?

And is it the case that you did all your listening through a 250?

BAM

I havn't heard the cd12 or the Naim, or the 804's, (although I have listened extensively to all of Linn's lesser models)so feel free to ignore my comments, but why would you want to audition either player through the 804's? They have a completely different design philosophy to both players and the amp. You blame the 250 for the shortcomings, I'm not sure why. Having said that I agree with you that £12000 is a silly price to ask, however good it is. With the ££s saved I would audition some speakers to do your naim system justice. I just wish I was in the same dilemma

Nigel says

quote:

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an engineer can design something for a penny that any fool can design for a pound

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I like this sentence, but with your permision I'd
like to correct it slightly -

a GOOD engineer can design something for a penny that any fool can design for a pound.

We know that the dimploma itself say nothing about the one who holds it.

Arie

Nigel,

I had Naut 804s, they lasted 6 months before I replaced them with SBLs - be careful

Regards,

Chris.

Bam
No I did not limit the test to Nautilus 804's. In "My promised report on CD players" I outlined that I used a NAP500 into 802's. The top two players were the CDS-II and the CD12. In this test the CD12 won out but I wanted to explore further. The important thing to me was to try the equipment out in the comfort of my own home where I do most of my listening!
Chris
I like the 804's. Personally I don't get on very well with the SBL and I really think that the speakers are very much to everyone's own taste. The thing is that 804 shows what I was expecting from the system whereas the Ninka did not. Also my wife insisted that the 804 looked better and you have to please management you know!
My desired goal is to get to something like the NBL or 802 Matrix and drive these from the 500. Trouble is that I am all spent out with the exception of a little money left over to buy a second 250. Anyone got any thoughts on whether I'm wasting my time or shall I wait until next year before I move on to the 500?

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I didn't mean to diss(the word of the moment) your taste in speakers - after all I bought them so I must have liked something about them! I also agree there aren't many better looking speakers around (Sonus Faber Amati Homage spring to mind).

Anyhow, have you paid for them? If not, and you still have your heart set on the Nautilus, you might like to try the 803s. In my view, these are disproportionately better than the 804s, given the difference in size and price.

I also wasn't convinced by SBLs initially. However, after having a pair on extended home loan I learnt to love them, and now wouldn't consider letting them go.

I also think, 2X135 may be the way to go rather than 2X250.

Just my thoughts, take'em or leave'em.

Chris.

I have recently had Sbl's on loan for a week in place of my regular Linn Keilidhs (like the Ninka that has replaced them in the model line up they also suffer from an annoying bass boom). The Sbl's have a repution as a love/hate speaker and I was expecting them to sound thin, harsh forward etc but at least they wouldn't boom! How wrong I was; realistic fast bass, accuracy, clarity - bought them! These are fantastic speakers but must be set up correctly, not too difficult when you watch your dealer do it! Don't forget with a 2nd 250 they can go active (with the suitable cross over)- I think that this route could be the most rewarding.

Nigel,
for all the work that naim have put into the suspension systems of the CDS2, I've found that its still VERY sensitive to its physical environment - what it sits on.

I made a simple stand tweak recently to improve the cds2's base from acoustic-borne vibrations, and for the first time got a real hint of its analogue character potential .. vocals went from grainy->creamy, dynamics grew, it took on that holistic flow & musicality you instantly associate with good vinyl, but which it wasn't exhibiting before. maybe 1/2 an 82->52 upgrade...

Dunno what your setup is, but I think there's lots ways to NOT hear naim eqpt at its best...

Chris
No offence taken. The 804's are good for me because they sit nicely in my currently restricted listening room. 803 would shake the house down! Just don't get on with the SBL. Bought a second 250 since they are easier to sell on the second-hand market than 135s.
Woodface
You're right about the active thing. I'm not hung up on active like I used to be. With modern loudspeaker design this seems to be less of an issue. Also you might want to listen to the 500 passive. It knocks 135 or 250 active off the top spot in my view. This is important to me because this is probably where I will go and I don't want to invest in active setup knowing this.
Peter
Great tip. My setup is 52/2 x 250 into 804. Got a reasonble table which is obscure from direct view from the speakers. Going to have a play and see what I find. If I get better than I've got now I will be in heaven (it's already giving me as much pleasure as my LP12)!

I heard the above playing through NBls at my dealer and was overwhelmed by the dynamic headroom! This is fantastic and if I has the cash I would power my Sbl's with one! I will probably go the active route myself as it involves smaller jumps as it were. It is unlikely that I will have £10k to spend in one go! Obviously in your case if you have the cash for a CD12 then you will one day have the same for a NAP 500. Are the 804's the stand mount design?