1: the 250

2: or mana stand, if this, which one

3: add a hi-cap

4: change the speakers

In what order would you upgrade my system,?

Thanks in advance

Fred

FWIW I upgraded to CDSII/82/2*hi/180 earlier this year, from CDX/72/hi. To me the music didn't "gel" in the way I expected (== good analogue). It took all of 3 bars listening to a supercap to say "gotta have one" (reactions a bit slow!). The super really sorted out the musical threads, dynamics and rhythms. Anchored and made the whole bottom end come alive. Brought a real sense of scale, subtlety, relaxed naturalness and ease. A lot more tonal accuracy on classical instruments - really hear the timbre. Before with 2 hicaps the 82 sounded "choppy" and forced, like it was clipping the transients, the amp was obviously constraining the music.

You'll find the super has a "multiplying" effect in your system, making the most of the source and the 82. Imagine doubling the total music in *every* dimension - weight, width, depth, dynamics, timing, information, effortlessness...
I found the supercap's musical effect as significant as any major upgrade I've done.

You'll also be surprised how much more "musical drive and energy" the 180 develops. That said, I subsequently had the chance to buy some good used 135s, and 180->135s was about the same magnitude - so with a supercap the 180 is become a bottleneck. But I'm sure the 135s would have been wasted without the 82/super in front, and more importantly I could have been quite happy without them unless I'd known what I was missing....

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But I'm sure the 135s would have been wasted without the 82/super in front, and more importantly I could have been quite happy without them unless I'd known what I was missing....

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How was your holiday break? Your new 52 must be starting to sound sweet by now. I know I need a Supercap, but are you sure 135s are wasted with a mere 82/2*Hi? I was thinking about 135s when I had my 102! Anyway, the Supercap will have to wait quite a bit longer now that I've used all my reserves on a new ARO for my LP12. It was a far less painful purchase than a new CDS2.

The bidding for a used Supercap starts here. Do I have any vendors?

James

Resistance is Futile

I am "messing up" around the same combinations of components :

I had CDI/82/180, then added 1 Hicap, then a second, then a Mana SoundFrame, and then 135's. All these steps (except the Mana) were more due to bargains popping up and not "theoretical" considerations, mind.

1. I think that part of the "unnatural" feeling that Peter describes with a dual hicap (and not a supercap) is partly due to his then 180. It is a great amp with great rythm and drive, but after the 135's warmed nicely everything sounds so much more natural and real, and the bass gained tunefullness and tonal qualities that weren't even hinted before. The top end is much cleaner but reqlly everything is so real and muscally thrilling, it's more than I expected.

2. The Mana soundframe was the best VFM, it was a better and cheaper upgrade than the first HiCap upgrade, and the nice thing was that it made everything better (scale, tunes, bass etc. )simply by "cleaning" it.

3. The second hicap mostly added scale and refined the tonal picture, reasonable VFM IMO.

4. I have heard a 250 in my system for only 4 days, and it had much better grip but at times it could sound constricted (tonally) and heavier than the 180. So bear this in mind, it is probably much better, but also different. The 135's are plain better in every respect.

5. Bear in mind I've never seen or heard a supercap so my perspective are narrower than the other fellows here.

So, if you're buying new, a new supercap minus hicap will be much cheaper than new 135's minus 180, so that's I guess the reasonable "box" upgrade to do. If you are willing to buy s/h, then I saw 135's going for ~1800GBP which is cheaper than the supercap alternative. If you go with the 250, experiment first.

OTOH, you must at least listen to what a good support does to your system, I would simply start with a something underneath your CDX, consult the Mana guys.

Omer.

As you can see I hadn't even thought of the sc as a way to go. Now I really have something to think about. Well, no I don't, as you will see by what follows.

Morton I think you have put your fingure on the nub of my problem. We heard the Saras when we way back in the 80s. That experience stayed with me and owning them and the appropriate kit drove my interest in Hi Fi. In 1989 I got a pair of 9's sh and drove them with my 110. I thought the music was bloody marvelous: and maybe it was. My wife said it sounded best when she was 30 or so feet away from the speakers, separated from them by whopping thick log cabin wall. Anyway those speakers represent our effort to get away from crap and into real music. No thought was ever given to matching them to the rest of our equipment. To us, at the time, there were good speakers and there were bad speakes. These were good speakers. My dealer told me so.

Time passes and we have learned more about equipment, specifically that the 9's are inefficient and power hungry. We added the 180 and other stuff. Still we are told the Sara 9's need more power. The 250 seems like a logical next step. EXCEPT I am beginning to think that even a 250 is really not enough power for them.

If a 250 falls short, if the 135's are what the Sara 9's need, why buy a 250.

I can never afford moving to 135's. That just won't happen, nor can I see getting to a sc. either,even though the benefit is huge. So, if the 240 won't do it, should I just pack it in and either settle for what I have with my current set up, or sigh!, give up on the sara 9's and all that dreaming and go for a pair of more efficient speakers instead of the 250.

I think that is what is bothering me the most in terms of planning.

It is almost enough to drive me to buying lottery tickets.

Thanks guys, believe it or not it has been helpful to have your viewpoints. At least I am more clear as to what is at issue.

Fred

First move was an 82 then a CDX then SBLs then active with Naxo-Hi, 250. I am very happy with the result but this all started with the Saras!

You have excellent equipment feeding those hungry solidly built speakers.
Investigate some more:
1. Saras have to be placed solidly against a wall
2. Check the set up the Sara stands ensure that they are firmly on the ground and do not rock with a push.
3.If you don't have them try some Naca5 cable
4. Experiment with a few other speakers. Borrow from friends if your friendly B.C. dealer is not so friendly.
Good listening
Ed

[This message was edited by Ed Kartick on TUESDAY 09 January 2001 at 20:16.

[This message was edited by Ed Kartick on TUESDAY 09 January 2001 at 20:17.]

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I can never afford moving to 135's. That just won't happen, nor can I see getting to a sc
either, even though the benefit is huge.

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Don't count on it. Used Naim purchases are extraordinarily good value. I bought new 102/Hicap/180 and thought that would be it. Those have now been replaced with used 82/2Hi/135s for very little money. Wait for the opportunity, I'd say.

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So, if the 240 (250?) won't do it, should I just pack it in and either settle for what I have with my current set up, or sigh!, give up on the sara 9's and all that dreaming and go for a pair of more efficient speakers instead of the 250.

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Let's face it, the loudspeaker is the last component of a long chain and should be the least of your worries. I can understand emotional attachment to the Saras, but I haven't heard them so I can't say what they need. However, there is no denying that there are newer transducers that can do a better job than the Saras. Perhaps if you outlined what you liked about the Saras and others here may be able to offer suggestions.

Jame

Resistance is Futile

Your amps are fine, I wouldn't go near a supercap right now - chaging your speakers will give you the biggest single sonic improvement.

Dev

Anyway, the main problem with Saras is not so much their inefficientcy as such but there horrible low impedance and phase angles - these give an amplifier a very hard time. I've heard Saras many times and although the are tonally 'characterful', they always had a tight grip on the music. However, I've always thought that 250s or 135s were required, anything less and the system sounded WRONG in a way I can't describe.

So I'd suggest you pack the speakers and amps off to your local dealer and listen to a 250 in your system. ALternatively listen to something like a Shahinian Super Elf on the end of the 180, a nice
clean, musical speaker. Then listen to a 250/Super Elf or 250/SBL and see what you think.

Enjoy!!

[This message was edited by Martin M on WEDNESDAY 10 January 2001 at 12:10.]

After reading your post here, I'm realy tempted to borrow your soundframe . Can we arrange it ?

Arie

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After reading your post here, I'm realy tempted to borrow your soundframe . Can we arrange it ?

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Sure Arie, it's all yours. I have thought about it last week, and realized that a quick listen won't do it. You need to take it for at least a day or two to "settle down" or whatever it does. So just call me next time you come to Tel-Aviv and you can just pop over and and collect it (unless I have a speaker audition at my place :-) ).

Charles,
I would check if the 250 solves the problem.
If not, I would say a s/h second Hi/Cap would help a lot, and I would change the speaker to something that you like that is easier to drive.

Regards, Omer.

To what type of music do you listen? In a house or an apartment where you have constraints on music volume? Have you identified any personal preferences in speakers? Do you have "presentation" that you prefer? What is it that is really important about the Saras performance?

If you can, borrow a second hicap for the 82. Even if you are constrained to one change only and opt to change amp or speakers you will at least have a better idea of where you might end up.

I think a second hicap on the 82 and different speakers will totally revolutionize your system's performance. You may however have some difficulty finding speakers that you like. If you answer a few of the questions above people on the forum may be able to suggest speaker candidate

In light of certain discoveries, I'd go for a 5 shelf Mana rack and keep the Sara's (I still love mine!!). Then see how you find things when the Mana Settles and then either aim for the 250 upgrade route or put a soundstage under the rack (the mana route for me seems better buck for bang, but it's personal).

Zak