I recently bought a Troika that still has a fair bit of life left in it for my LP12/Geddon/Aro. When it goes I will almost certainly go the Arkiv B route. Like you said, it retains all the positive qualities of the Troika and actually improves on them.

The first time I heard one I didn't know I was about to. My dealer had installed an Arkiv B on his LP12/Lingo/Ekos and I started playing a record. It was instantly obvious that something had been changed for the better; the cartridge was the only element that had changed. It remains the best sounding cartridge I have heard for an LP12.

Enjoy !

Bob

I had this in my 6-pack/DBL system for several months, but only played it a few times out of curiosity, as it was in most ways some distance behind the CDS. On a very few albums (which I also had on CD) that configuration was sweeter, more articulate and tuneful. The fact that it could be better than the CDS, albeit only on rare occasions merited a more thorough approach and commitment towards vinyl.

So off again it went to the dealer to be fitted with a new plinth (black, of course), a Prefix, the Armageddon and of course the Aro. This was duly done and the dealer trekked up to re-install it. I had bought and already mounted a Mana wall-shelf in anticipation.

To sweeten the pot he brought up an extra Aro armtube that had his personal Archiv B mounted. And for grins I managed to persuade a 52-owning friend to come along that evening and to bring with him his Supercap from the 52, so I could try it out as a dedicated P/S for the Prefix.

The tournament begins.....

1. With the Benz Micro set up and the Prefix powered up the standard way through the 52s head unit we played several LPs. Without exception they all sounded splendid, and light years ahead of what the same cartridge without the benefits of the geddon/Aro/Prefix would allow.

2. Add the Archiv B. This took only a matter of minutes as Richard (the dealer) had fabricated some VTA protracters for each of the cartriges. With the Archiv in place everything became more dramatic, more extended, more tuneful and less colored. Yes, a significant improvement and one that had me seriously considering plonking out for an Archiv ASAP.

3. The Supercap cometh!!!!!!.
With the Archiv resident in the LP12 the power feed from the 52 was disconnected and remade via the extra supercap and the obligate Din4 to Din5 cable- one of the latest 'lavender' coloured ones. If there was one thing that would cause an expletive reponse, it was the additional supercap (making a total of THREE supercaps in the system). The music suddenly dissociated itself entirely from the speakers, which is no mean feat for the DBLs. Everthing moved with alacrity and panache. A degree of tunefullness and beauty was injected that was only barely hinted at before.

4. The Benz returneth: With the supercap duly installed as the prefix p/s, the Archiv was removed and the Benz Micro replaced. Although the decline in sound was very obvious, many of the advantages of adding the extra supercap remained. True the midrange lost some of that delicious creamy and gestalt-like texture, and the timing of the LF was not quite so precise, nor as extended. And the HF was not as grainless. BUT... this still boogied like crazy. And still continues to do so, as when it came time for things to be disassembled for the evening, my supercap-owning friend did not have the heart to pull his supercap out of the system as that would only cause a painful bleeding hole where it had once been. So he left me with it to borrow it for 'a few days'. Thanks Mahmood, I will be returning it 'soon'.

The Point of this Post?
The Archiv B is a great cartridge, and one very consonant with music. But at some point the 'Source First' dogma has got to collapse. There is no doubt that the LP12 tells a greater truth with a full-montyed prefix (hereafter referred to as the FMP).

In my case and preferences it is quite clear that I will have to go the FMP route before I consider the Archiv. This involves 'only' getting another supercap, which is roughtly twice the price as the Archiv. But those of you out there who may be considering the Archiv who have not (yet) gotten a Geddon/Prefix should consider sticking with the cartridge they have and forego the Archiv for now in favour of these other bits. Certainly the Geddon is further upstream in the Source First flow than the Archiv. The prefix is debateable as to which point in the stream it would enter.

Note that the cost of a Geddon/Prefix is less than the cost of an Archiv. Of course an external PS of at least Hicap performance is mandated with a non-52 preamp which would add to the cost.

The combination I have not addressed so far is how would the ArchivB perform in an LP12/Geddon/Aro without the benefits of a Prefix and straight into the 52s indwelling phono boards. Well several years ago I tried exactly this. It was certainly a bit sweeter at the very top than the CDS but compressed and lacking in foundation at the very bottom- very evident through the DBLs, but probably far less noticeable in most other speakers. I preferred the overall balance of the CDS then. Now I think I may prefer the far cheaper Benz Micro going into the FMP. Indeed I prefer the Prefixed Micro over the unprefixed Archiv. Others may not.

As usual kudos to the dealer (Richard Jenkins) and the dealership (Music Audio, Atlanta) for his time, LP12 expertise and enthusiasm. And to NANA for making this possible.

And as always caveat emptor, its your money.

Oh, here is a pic of the FMP installation. The 'extra' supercap is seated upon the Geddons shipping box :-) Due to the size of the image, it will have to be hotlinked, instead of pasted into this message.

FMP Setup

Ron
Rons Homepage

[This message was edited by Ron Toolsie on SUNDAY 19 November 2000 at 18:51.]

Very interesting post, Ron. You have confirmed what Ulrich said on the old forum regarding the importance/performance of the Prefix/Supercap combination. Have you tried other MC pre-preamps?

(Perhaps, if Franck is reading this he could comment, as I believe his favoured MC preamp is Tom Evans "The Groove". I'm not sure if he has commented on the Super/Prefix before.)

By the way, what are those supports you are now using (in addition to the Geddon box). The LP12 appears to be on a Mana table. What is it attached to on the wall? Last time I remember looking at your website your gear was placed one on top of the other.

Paul

quote:

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By the way, what are those supports you are now using (in addition to the Geddon box). The LP12 appears to be on a Mana table. What is it attached to on the wall? Last time I remember looking at your website your gear was placed one on top of the other.

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The wall stand is indeed a Mana. Given the differences between the mounting holes in the stand and the standard stud separation in the US, the choice was to either affix the wall stand to only a single stud on one side and merely sheetrock on the other, or to screw on a baseboard to the wall into the studs, and then to affix the Mana onto that. Which is what I did.

The component-level stands is a Roomtune Clamprack, which is used with the platforms in the non-clamped position. The stand that houses the 6x135 is an entry-level Target stand.

Hardly ideal I agree. Eventually I plan to tear down the system and to re-install it on some decent racks. Due to the vast number of boxes (16 different naim chasses plus 1 LP12)and the limited cable lenghts between them this will be in interesting excercise in ergometrics.
If somebody would like to post a schematic how I can get the CDS/CDSPS/52/supercap/Nat01/NATPS/SNAXO/Supercap/LP12/Supercap/Armageddon/6x135 onto maybe two separate stands in an optimally separated fashion, and yet keep within the constraints of relatively short cable lengths (circa 1.2 meters standard)I would love to see it.

I have not tried any other phonostages apart from the 52 phono boards, the prefix powered by the 52 and the prefix powered by the supercap. I will shortly reclaim a hicap I have out on loan and try it out on the Prefix too.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html

If you wish to weep, try a Dynavector Te Kaitora in your ARO. It may even change the whole argument of FMP vs cartridge. I tend to find the ArkivB a bit thin and bright and splashy. The Te Kaitora makes a lot of sense musically and tonally by comparison.

It has been quite some time since I heard a Prefix. My recollection was that in some ways I preferred the groove factor of the standard boards in the 52, but there was an accuracy and speed missing from those inboards as well. They came across as lumpier and a little less well defined.

The Tom Evans Groove is a fabulous phono stage, but it's somehow not as effective in a Naim system as in other round earth ones for some reason. I don't know why this is the case. It's better than the boards but I haven't done a direct comparison with a Prefix.

Regards,
Frank.

quote:

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If you wish to weep, try a Dynavector Te Kaitora in your ARO. It may even change the whole argument of FMP vs cartridge. I tend to find the ArkivB a bit thin and bright and splashy. The Te Kaitora makes a lot of sense musically and tonally by comparison.

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I am open to trying out any cartridge that I can. I remember how wide the chasm was between different cartriges even with a 1970's era integrated amp, so et fortiore with a FMP/52. I have heard some murmurs from Those in the Know that the Dynavector cartridges, even at the nethermost price lack the PR&T that some of the Flatter Earth ones may exhibit. Having said that the last Dynavector I owned was a early 80's Ruby Karat that had great pace to it, with much colouration too.

I also hear that the Lyra Helicon comes highly recommended in an otherwise all Linn/naim flat-earth system. Something that I will also have to try out. I will not turn down any home audition of a Dynavector, or any other cartridge either. I have a late 80s stylus-free Van den Hul MC One cartridge and a Dynavector 17D mk2, also lacking the sharp point (don't even ask) that I may consider having rebuilt (???? but where????).

quote:

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It has been quite some time since I heard a Prefix. My recollection was that in some ways I preferred the groove factor of the standard boards in the 52, but there was an accuracy and speed missing from those inboards as well.

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Since the snaic is an intrinsic part of the Prefix, unless you have heard the black-snaiced version, then you may not have heard a Prefix in its current glory. And if you haven't tried the FMP version, then the surface of its absolute capabllities has only been scratched.

quote:

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The Tom Evans Groove is a fabulous phono stage, but it's somehow not as effective in a Naim system as in other round earth ones for some reason. I don't know why this is the case. It's better than the boards but I haven't done a direct comparison with a Prefix

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I have a sneaky suspicion that the Prefix in an otherwise round earth system will not shine through, being stultified in the PR&T department the ancillary electronics and not bringing much in the way of holographic imaging to the table. But I may be wrong- I have for instance very successfully paired a valve power amp (Audio Research D70 mk2) in a Linn/naim system, contrary to standard dogma.

Regarding the standard 523 boards, I find them quite compressed and dull, lacking inner detail and schwing. The older preamps such as the 42/32/72 with their more upfront and less laid back sound seemed more of a symbiotic match for the indwelling phono boards. The Prefix however is quite another pot of perch.

And ideas on how a rebuilt Van der Hul MC One may far compared to the current competition? I wish I had never thrown my knackered Karma away.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html

Here is a possibilty with a pair of custom Mana racks. I have never seen an active system, so I may have some incorrect assumptions about wiring. The tallest of the 2 stands will be about 6' high. My suggestion would be to place them such that the backs of each face one another. That way you can get the most distance between them. If you use the side-by-side configuration depited here or perhaps just rotate the amp rack 90 degrees instead of 180, the LP12 could remain on the wall shelf you already own (maybe on top of a Ref Table and PSU Table for the Armageddon which I believe can both sit on the wall shelf).

Vuk.

P.S. Or how about the setup below?

P.P.S. Or an ultra-compact model?

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on WEDNESDAY 22 November 2000 at 01:38.]

I would take exception to Franks description of a Arkiv B as "thin" relative to a Te Kaitora. My dealer and I would both rank the Arkiv B (and Troika, for that matter) above any of the Dynas. (Have not heard the Dyna above the Te Kaitora) As Ron suggests, they lack the ultimate groove factor. They also don't have that "je ne sais quoi" that the Arkiv B and Troika had. YMMV.

The only cartridge I have heard (albeit very briefly) that is substantially better than the Arkiv B on a LP12 is the $7500 Clearaudio.

Cheers,

Bob

The glass should be a little darker and less torquois, and you forgot to add the green lights on the boxes.

Joe

I use a DRT-XV1 Dyna and used to have a Te Kaitora. I've also used Troikas and have set up LP12s/systems with the Arkiv B. I would agree that the Arkiv B isn't thin but I also think the two Dynas are better... and my ultimate deciding factor is always the 'Groove Thing'.

The issues with the TK and XV-1 are that they're VERY pernickety on VTA and bias settings. The bias especially is easy to mis-set if you use the arm's (Ekos or ARO) default calibration settings. Perhaps it's the stylus shape (same for both) but they both require considerably more bias than indicated. It really makes a world of difference with these puppies.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Eminently fair response ! I suspect that you and I have different sensitivities to what the cartridges in question do (and probably other equipment as well). I also think that differing sensitivities goes some way to explaining the way some folk s feel about different items, and that it is pointless to argue about them. I do think that discussing different impression is valuable, since different people will have different takes on different items.

To your point about the cartridges: I would ta ke an Arkiv B (or new Troika) over any of the Dynas I have heard. The Dynas I have heard just don't have that "Sit down right now and listen--I am playing" thing that the Arkiv B or Troika have. I appreciate your suggestion about setup being not dead on, but the cartridges were set up by my dealer who is THE BEST (!) when it comes to LP12 setup/cartridge setup. As a result, I have total confidence that they were perfectly setup and aligned.

As I mentioned above, I think it boils down to taste. No thing wrong with that--differences make the world go round ! Live and let live.

Cheers,

Bob

PS--Got a Troika you'd like to send my way ? j

Ulrich

I would go for your second set up with the CDS2 on the top and the SNAXO replacing the 01PS. I'd leave the LP12 on the wall shelf.

later dude,

Dev

But the Well Tempered, Arkiv, Prefix leaves them all for dead, no LP12, P3 or Rega Ive heard even comes even close to this level of performance.

You don't need corrective measures like supercapped Prefixes, tables et al to enhance it's performance. It just works brilliantly out of the box.

Dev

Source first all the way.

quote:

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You don't need corrective measures like supercapped Prefixes, tables et al to enhance it's performance. It just works brilliantly out of the box.

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I won't argue for or against the WTT vs the LP12. It is true that a better turntable will produce better results straight into the 52s phono boards, but it will also show a greater improvement by going the FMP route. Supercapping (would that make it a Tophat?) the Prefix fundamentally is an optimization of it, not a 'corrective' action, any more than supercapping an 82 vs running it powered via a NAP 180.

I urge Dev to at least try Hicapping the Prefix, drink a 0.5 bottle of wine and see for yourself.

And a 'thank-you' to Vuk for his CAD solutions to my equipment arrangement question. His nesting of the SNAXO close to the 135s is pretty mandatory as the cables that hook it up to the 135s are the standard Din-XLR pre-to-power cables, each one being only 1.2 metres. The physically optimal respective placement of the 16 boxes is severely constrained by the relatively short lengths of interconnect/Snaic/Burndy/amp cables.

I am thinking about having maybe the CDS head unit also wall mounted, although I am told the closer it stays to the ground the better. But some ideal has got to be compromised during the pragmatics of a physical installation.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html

I have been playing with the ArkivB lately as well as Te Kaitoras on different decks and in different systems (the benefit of being a bit of a dealer). My results - and those of those around me in the form of customers and colleagues - have been consistent, and in favour of the Dynavector. I agree that Dynavectors do not time as well as one would wish, but I'd argue that they time better than the ArkivB.

The best timing cartridges I have heard are the Ortofon MC25FL, Lyra LydianB and the Ortofon 7500. I haven't had enough exposure to the XV-1 to make a decision on that yet (though it's pretty hot from what I've heard so far).

Vuk

This may not be possible due to cabling lengths but - I think it would of benefit if the SNAXO were on the left hand rack as it's dealing with voltage level changes and is a bit of a preamp in its own right.

Dev

I agree with your results on the Well Tempered. It's a formidable machine. The LP12 sounds like so much broken music by comparison. I haven't bought one but I am still considering it.

Regards,
Frank.

I do know for sure that a 10-tier Mana rack exists. As coincidence would have it, I spotted this last night, after making the diagrams, in a description of the recording studio on a particular CD of mine. I assumed it would be possible, as 11-tier (necessary for option 2)should be, as well.

BTW--if you do mean to pursue this seriously, I would post the picture(s) I've put up here on the Mana forum and ask John Watson for his advice, which, if you can believe it, is probably better than mine in this case.

Bob.

You wrote:

quote:

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Dynas ... also don't have that "je ne sais quoi" that the Arkiv B and Troika had.

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Most of us call that "mis-tracking". Maintenant vous savez.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on WEDNESDAY 22 November 2000 at 17:53.]