The Background
Mana Six Tier Rack at Phase 9, with a Two Tier Rack on top of it...

Recently added a pair of 250s, replacing my 140s - which left me severly underwhelmed (they maybe in need of a service).

I found my system had become quite congested, it felt as if the SBLs were controlling the 250s, there was no drive to the music, except a lethargic drone that did everything, just with no passion/emotion.

I always found dropping Mana Phases quite painful - hence avoided it, but thought the whole rack arranagement could be causing some of the problems (cds2 nasties affecting the 52, the snaxo too close to the *caps)...

The Racks
Anyway with a heavy heart i stripped down the whole rack, anyone one who's set-up Mana will understand. I decided to re-house the gear with the cds2 and 52 on the Two-Tier rack @ Phase 6, and keep the snaxo/hicap/supercap/xps/250s on the Six Tier Rack @ Phase 4. 3hrs later !!!

Suffice to say this made cable dressing a doddle, and allowed me the keep the Two-Tier rack a burndy's distance away from the Six-Tier.

The Music
From the off, the improvement was clearly noticeable, now everything had more poise, and so much more expresssion, attack and air around the speakers and the soundstage stretched further forward. Some detail was lost, downside of Mana down-phasing i guess, but what had returned was way better.

Now the 250s have so much more control over the SBLs, bass is deeper and tuneful, but the whole soundstage/imaging lark is done in an effortless fashion. Now 9pm is reasonably loud, where as before i'd crank upto 11 on the dial !!!

To me the cds2 sat above the 52, screws up the 52, maybe its something the cds2 emits, but it does something the 52 does not like...

Additionally i reckon the 250s transformers caused many of my problems, there big and nasty simple as that, and the further you can get non-powered gear, the better.

Where Next...
I believe set-up wise, i can still improve by distancing the cds2 further from the 52, and the snaxo from the *caps - using Mana Reference Tops.

Summary
One good rack is a must, but more boxes = more problems, two racks set-up up thoughtfully are even better.

The best upgrades are free ones --->



naheed...

Naheed,

I have to agree that this is very important stuff at this level.

FYI, the transformers in mains-powered stuff are on the right-hand side of the box, and you will get the best result by putting 52/CDS/SNAXO in a rack on the left-hand side, with PSs & NAPs on the right. Also, the Burndy sockets are setup so that you can get much greater distance between racks in this config.

In a six-pack sistem, you cannot easily put all the amps & PSs on one rack (nine levels), and the SNAXO needs to be connected to a PS & the NAPs. I have found the best three-rack config to be with the unpowered stuff in the central rack, PSs on one side and NAPs on the other.

cheers, Martin

i wonder if the new NAPs, especially the higher end ones(300 & 500) also should be on the right-hand-side rack? given their PS's contain the transformers... question is do the 'head unit' of the NAP300 or 500 go under the 52 or under the supercaps?

regards
shahreza

Martin - i placed the cds2/52 to the left, about 2 ft from the amps.

Ideally three racks for active is best, but floor space is a little limited at the moment.

Where are your DBLs positioned in relation to the racks ?

Someone is tempting me with a pair of DBLs - but i can't accomodate them just yet - cool piccie martin

Shahreza, i think the problems still inherent with the new gear, but for me another dimension would be should the 500ps be kept away from the amps, is this why naim split the amp (tranny nasties) or was is it something else ?


naheed...

quote:

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Originally posted by Naheed:
I decided to re-house the gear with the cds2 and 52 on the Two-Tier rack @ Phase 6, and keep the snaxo/hicap/supercap/xps/250s on the Six Tier Rack @ Phase 4. 3hrs later !!!

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Naheed,

the SNAXO will be screwed up by the transformers, too.

Try plonking it on top of the 52.

This is a diagram of the layout of my stuff. I did it before I last re-organised my system. This sort of planning is definately a benefit with a complex setup. It was easy to do once I'd created a few shapes (wide case / narrow case / level of racking) by grouping several primitive shapes together, then copy-and-paste as required.

I tried many (virtual) setups before I realised I had to turn the 135s by 90 degrees for the cables to reach (and give enough distance).

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by Naheed:
Martin - i placed the cds2/52 to the left, about 2 ft from the amps.

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Naheed,

yup, that's best.

quote:

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Ideally three racks for active is best, but floor space is a little limited at the moment.

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I'm sure two racks would be fine for a 2x250 system, but the SNAXO needs to be away from the trannys just as badly as the CDS & 52.

quote:

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Where are your DBLs positioned in relation to the racks ?

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From that picture, they would be directly behind the camera.

The electronics are in the narrow end of the room, and the speakers fire across the wide end.

quote:

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Someone is tempting me with a pair of DBLs - but i can't accomodate them just yet - cool piccie martin

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If you get a really good sound from SBLs I'd certainly recommend DBLs.

Would you go active or passive? I still have a spare NAXO3-6 (silver bumper) if that might help you (would need to be reconfigured from Isobarik to DBL, though).

Have you still got your old 140s? Maybe they could be pressed into tweeter duties in the short term?

cheers, Martin

Martin, the attached image maps my current set-up and two alternatives, one using reference tops and the other substituting the 2 Tier for a 3 Tier.

A potential issue housing the snaxo with the 52/cds2 is the wire jumble (hicap/snaxo and to the 250s)...

But given the improvement by moving the cds2/52 (and they were already 2ft away vertically from any p/supply) - then surely the snaxo will benefit, and hopefully cure the radio moscow/france 'pickup' issue i'm having.

The DBLs would be nice, my 140s are gone, but unless i go for the loft conversion or move something downstairs - i just have'nt the space to accomodate these giants

Martin, have you tried distancing the 52 from the cds (maybe swap the 52 and snaxo around) - as even Paul.S. has mentioned the best set-up regardless of rack brand is cds2, empty shelf, then 52.

naheed...

Naheed,

Sounds like you've had a busy x-mas reorganising things. I think both of your proposals will work. Option 3 looks the best (i.e the SNAXO between the CDS2 and 52). And what ill effects have you noticed between the CDS2 and 52. I know CD players are like RF heaven, but I would expect a Naim player to be well engineered on the RF leakage front.

I know this is heresy but there is a school of thought which suggests that the better Naim components you have (i.e ones with suspensions, etc built in) the less Mana phasing they need.

Happy new year.

Dev

ps. who is tempting you with DBLs? Perhaps they can tempt me.

Lets just say post new-years day, i had problems sleeping (hyper-active partying mode), and it seemed a good idea a the time.

I think with regards to Mana the olive and older style gears really excels with Mana. The cds2 does, but not as much as a cds1, which craves more and more (maybe something to do with it being r&d'd on a reference table ???

The new gear - i don't know, have'nt heard it properly yet, though alot more effort has been applied to to isolate the internals. Maybe naim tune the springs etc. to allow the Fraim to maxmise isolation, and other supports don't ????????

With regards to the 52/cds2, some experimenting in distancing the two gave an improvement. From memory Javed Ashraf mentioned this (i think it was him) on the old forum, many years ago, and Paul.S. has mentioned twice the optimal rack set-up would be cds/empty shelf/52... its free to try

I'll email you the details for the DBLs, on one condition i can pop round for a listen if you buy them.

naheed...

Gentelemen
My setup at the moment is as shown in the photo
attached.I am thinking of new racks, and wondered
whether to keep to the two racks as present,or to go for three.
Also what rack to go for,as if I go for two rack
setup,my choce may be limited.
Your comments will be welcome.

Problems attaching the image,will try again

try again

Hi Naheed, how's it hangin' me old son?

Well, all I can say regarding the positioning of equipment on Mana stands is that I got much better results by having both my CDS 2 and 52 on Reference Tops at Phase 4 on separate racks than I did when I had everything on one big tall rack.

For starters, John Watson has stated that short Mana racks sound better than the taller variety due to, amongst other things, the increase in stability. When using racks in this particular configuration it also facilitates the optimal spacing of equipment and it makes arranging the cables neatly a whole lot easier. Furthermore, any kit situated on a Reference Top will sound much better than merely being on a spare shelf within the rack itself (as it will always be 1 Phase higher) - I believe this is one of the main reasons I got such a lift in sound quality when I was able to house both my CDS 2 and 52 on separate Reference Tops.

Another thing I've noticed is that in order to obtain the best sound, it's VITAL to have the equipment's feet (when on the glass shelf) placed evenly in between the spikes underneath the shelf and apply the same procedure to the glass shelf itself in relation to the spikes. Furthermore, the use of longer spikes (as in floor spikes) on the Reference Top (instead of the standard ones supplied) gives improved performance and is well worthwhile - as is using Mana Stealth leads instead of standard Naim ones - (IMO) the only exception to the rule!

Lastly, periodically, I check that all shelves are still in 'tune' as external and internal vibrations can, in certain circumstances, cause the shelves to go out of 'tune'.

Now, all I need to do is hike my Spendor's up to P4 the same as the equipment and things will get really scary …

Regards,
Marco.

Martin,

...just curious, I see you've got your Hicap positioned to the far right on it's BASE platform. I take it that position was not by chance but choice? Seems like the Rest of the World prefers this positioning as well (with Hicaps) yet every time I move mine from the "centered-on-the-shelf" position (regardless if a cdps or 250 resides on the shelf below), distortion increases and tunefulness decreases.

regards,

dave

quote:

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Originally posted by dave simpson:
Martin,

...just curious, I see you've got your Hicap positioned to the far right on it's BASE platform. I take it that position was not by chance but choice?

... every time I move mine from the "centered-on-the-shelf" position ... distortion increases and tunefulness decreases.

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Purely on a theoretical bases, this puts it further away from the CDSii. I haven't actually experimented, but now I will have to try it.

cheers, Martin

Do let us (me) know what happens Martin.


thanks,

dave

Vimal
Two or Three racks ideally, two would be a squeeze.

You have quite a few boxes to accomodate, though some rack re-positioning maybe required.

Are they BASE racks ?(sorry the pics not loading)
If so - there good stick with them, and just rearrange them, i thought they were modular ?

Heah Marco
Not bad Xmas over, a few pounds heavier, and all that...

I swear i could see the rack sway, in my old configuration, well it was over 6ft !

I thought i was being anal, doing the aligning feet to spike/glass, good to hear someone else is doing it.

Retuning - i find i've cracked the levelling lark now, when i stripped the whole rack, 'every' shelf/board was perfectly ringing...

P4 with Spendors - cool, i found P4 on my SBLs awesome, but P5's even better.

Anyway, dropping from Phases 9/10, to 6/4 has not been bad at all, now i can start stacking again. P7 (cds2/52/snaxo), P4 (250s/xps/super), and P5 (SBLs) is where i wantto be (soon).


Martin
I temporarily shifting the snaxo, even better than before, more detail/transparency - the music just flows so much better, need to make this a permanent fix pronto.

naheed...

quote:

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Originally posted by vimal:
Problems attaching the image,will try again

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Vimal,

Not the best image but wow! what a sistem. Tell us more about the Neat MF9's and how did you get them to work actively. And...do I spot a sub-woofer in there too.

regards

Dev

ps. get Fraim or Mana for your stands.

I had Neats Bob Surgeoner take out the passive c/o
and boxed up as shown in the 1st pic.
Mark Ragett(Naim service)sorted out the Snaxo.
My previous speakers were active Briks,and I did
enjoy listening to them,it was the Bass that did it for me.
1st Impressions of the active MF9s:
I thought the bass was a little lightweight(used to Briks),and the treble a little bright.
Things changed when I added a Scap to the Snaxo,
a more even and balanced sound.
The Mk1 Stentor was for experimentation only and wont be a permanent fixture,it will be moving on for AV duties.
I have now had the MF9s for around 18 months and very pleased with them.It produces a very clean and clear bass as long as the music played has good bass content(unlike the Briks),and the edge off the treble can be removeed using the Snaxo.
I had a quick listen to the Briks before selling them on and thought they sounded muffled by comparison(never thought this when I was using them,even when Bob pointed out the Briks mid range
was not forward enough).I could now hear what he meant.

Must sort out the picture quality.

Best regards
Vimal

The racks in the picture is some cheap tripos
I have had for years.Will probably gor for 2 racks if possible, if not it will have to be 3
(still not sure what make to go for)
Vimal