Having accepted the recommendation of yours (naming Emil and Adam on the first place with the biggest influence on me) I acquired a pair of Mana Sound Base to put under my SBLs. I’ve used them 11 day long then I re-packed them and now I’m a happy man again.

No doubt SBLs are in the need of some improvement and a lot of SBL owners present in this very Forum are touched by the temptation of buying the Bases. If they can’t manage it they try to find some cheep substitution (screws, balls, MDF and glass plates etc.) instead. So my aim with this report is not to make quarrel only to see (or show) the reality more tinged than our manaist friend do.

Let’s NOT decide whether Mana is good or bad. I’m ready to accept the whole business is environment or taste dependant. What we should do is analyzing the effect itself.

I’m perfectly convinced Sound Base under SBL is nothing else but an effective high/low pass filter and a dynamic filter at the same time. I may refer to my past where at many a time I had the possibility to be present at progresses of instrumental measurements and evaluating the result. It’s well-known in acoustics that you can’t simply damp out any resonance without some consequences. These consequences mainly are:

1. The resonant peak will be lower in magnitude but will expand into a broader frequency section.
2. The frequency range of the peak may be somewhat shifted.
3. The resonance will expand in time. In other words: the energy won’t be lost only changed.

And that’s exactly what I got from Mana. An und für sich (sorry for the German) it won‘t be a bad thing. Contrary to the view of some SBL fans this remarkable speaker’s merits are coupled to serious faults. The “clinical”, “analytical” attributes clearly point out these drawbacks, originating of a certain discontinuity in the speaker’s response in the presence region. Very, very modest speakers (e.g. the tiniest Heybrooks in my practice) produce much better in this region if they are put onto the extraordinarily good stand section of the SBL. In other respects they, of course, can’t produce what SBLs are capable of.

The “Mana effect” does fill those gaps in a way by grasping the speakers loose highest and deepest peaks with an iron hand and pushing them into the upper presence, and the upper bass section, respectively. It results in an extremely warm and soft sound picture coupled with an increased and distorted upper presence. Now you’ll be able to hear more players in the orchestra, the trouble is they all play with the same colour. Timbre differences are forgotten, e.g. gone the wonderful flute (recorder) solos of the SBLs... In addition to it the whole scene becomes close-miked, the music is played in the listening room or inside of head of the listener and it’s the worst possible thing (for me, at least). If you happen to be familiar of the PWB effect then you know what I’m talking about. Yes, with such distortion-producing means I’m ABLE to produce similar effects. Hic et nunc.

The choices are, at present:
1. SBL’s on the floor (+Chips) the honest poor man in his normal environment. I may visit him and have talks with him on life’s problems, e.g. what our next buy should be: a better amp or rather twice the cheaper amp and going active.
2. SBLs on Mana: the newly rich in an expensive house built on the basis of a rather dubious taste. I don’t likely visit him and have no common topics with him.

So I have a pair of hardly used Sound Base to be rid of them. Adam, Richard: in your views, does it all really seem a classified ad?!...

graphoman

Graphoman,

Nice write-up! I don't quite understand the technical side of everything you've described, but all in all your report mirrors my experience with SBLs and SBs, especially with regard to timbre (this was on a solid oak floor, sonically much like concrete since the wood is glued to the underlay).

I very much liked some aspects of the presentation, but after six months the SBs went. (BTW, when I put them in, I thought the timing improved. When I took them out, I also thought the timing improved. Hmm ...)

Thomas

As above, some of the more technical aspects of your post went over my head, but at the end of the day it's how my system sounds that matters to me, not the science.

I experimented extensively with Soundbases, as well as home made supports for my previous SBL's, and ultimately ended up happiest with them directly on the floor. Everything sounded much more natural and balanced.

Ade

thank you. While I’m absolutely convinced on my findings there is allways a danger of being ridicuous so I’m pleased to learn there are others who came to the same conclusion.

As for the 6 month of SBs: it may be mentioned that all my experiments with PWB effect gave the same result. The sound was “improving” (for me as well and for most of others who continued the experiment in their own flat) but sooner or later (and 6 months was more than enough)nearly everybody dropped the PWB products and gone back to the normal position. That’s why effects like the SBs come me such familiar.

Ade, won’t you describe the home made things you’ve tried instead of Mana? You may spare time and efforts for me.

graphoman

quote:

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Originally posted by Ade Archer:

I experimented extensively with Soundbases, as well as home made supports for my previous SBL's, and ultimately ended up happiest with them directly on the floor. Everything sounded much more natural and balanced.

---

I suspect you've got the right balance there. What kind of floor are yours on? I use my own homemade jobbies because of the suspended wooden flooring. If I had something less wobbly I would be tempted to leave them as Naim designed.

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

I tried the SBs with my IBL's and had the same impression. They unbalanced the sound. I returned them!

Ira

it’s time to realize it’s not the environment we are talking of but Mana itself. By the way yes, I have wobbly suspended floor.

graphoman

Interesting. One thing I discovered about my homemade stands was that the positon of the ballbearings was critical and differed from room to room. Maybe the SB don't allow that flexibility?

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

I found the same effect with SBs and DBLs. Clinical and soulless and the filtering effect made things sound faster from the beginning but after a while I understod why.

/Erik

PS. The same thing as Fraim vs MANA. DS

Dear Grampsoman

I've read your write up, but you seem to be saying:

- SBL's on their own are not that clear in the mid
- the engineering (i.e the stand) on SBLs is the best bit
- that Mana takes the top and bottom and pushes them into the mid which makes the speakers muddy and coloured

Pls correct me if I have misunderstood

The first & third points are totally at variance with my experiences with the Mana/SBL combination where I found

- The soundbases slowed the rhythm and timing aspects of the SBL
- It made the bass lower and the top higher, it made the mid-bass loose warmth and richness
- It the speaker subjectively brighter, more analytical

Basically a disasterous combination from a muscality POV. I note from your previous picture posting that your SBL's have a lot of stuff in-between them, and are not optimally placed. Perhaps that might explain some of the results you are achieving.

thanks for sharing though

Dev

[This message was edited by Dev B on Mon 18 October 2004 at 17:11.]

quote:

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In addition to it the whole scene becomes close-miked, the music is played in the listening room or inside of head of the listener and it’s the worst possible thing (for me, at least).

---

Well thats a very well know effect of Mana if setup isnt correct. Its also known that sb-1's are not easy to setup.

Hermann

It's pity that the mana is not doing the job for graphoman.

I have mana p.2 under the DBLs and they work fine. They sound
more together, alive and anologue. I did not test the speakers on concrete floor.

Emil

quote:

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Ade, won’t you describe the home made things you’ve tried instead of Mana? You may spare time and efforts for me.

---

Nothing fancy, just squares of black painted MDF supported in various ways, such as crosshead screws screwed through as floor spikes, Nordost Pulsar Ponts, and even the mdf directly on the floor. They weren't really meant to be a permanent solution, I was just experimenting.

quote:

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What kind of floor are yours on?

---

Suspended wooden floor. I did replace the section of crappy old floorboards under the speaker area with a square of flooring panel, which is obviously much more solid, but I suppose also creates a small degree of isolation from the surrounding floorboards, even though it obviously butts up against them.
The Fraim itself sits in an old fireplace which is solid concrete

quote:

---

Well thats a very well know effect of Mana if setup isnt correct. Its also known that sb-1's are not easy to setup.

---

Which is why I re-installed them many, many times. Maybe I installed them incorrectly every single time, but I doubt it.

Ade

Greetings László

Being an SBL user, I have been very interested in your 'SB trial' via my friend Martin Payne. Your findings are about what I expected.

I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of Mana, as I suspect that its effect is (like most of this silly game) a matter of personal taste.

It's also dependent on the type of music played.

Thanks for your reports in excellent English and happy listening.

John.

As I can recollect it having followed some of your tips I got some similar result (that time I told it to you).

Erik,
“The same thing as Fraim vs MANA.” It may be subjective but let me point out that Fraim (as in opposition to Mana) is a complicated and very even multi-band filter. I can easily realize it even if my Fraims are imitations (though rather good ones).

Dev,
I know the explanation is not that exact but believe me it does not miss some scientific motifs.

Hermann,
“Well thats a very well know effect of Mana if setup isnt correct.” The setup was absolutely correct. Only this kind of debatte is not correct:-) See the remark of Ade: “Maybe I installed them incorrectly every single time, but I doubt it.” Well I don’t need to install it again. You see, Hermann, I don’t want to hurt your rich harvest of Mana :-)

John,
thanks for the confirmation. Now we both understand why you did not likely want to be the first one trying the Bases before Martin sent them to me...

graphoman

graphoman and others -

My experience is based on Mana themselves installing SBs under my SBLs five years ago. At the time I had an 82 and the SBs, rather like you describe, had the effect of flattening everything out, making it seem faster, but thinner. Without them the sound seemed to have more timbre.

But after installing a 52 I tried them again and was (and remain) impressed. I have some sympathy with Dev's point about musicality, but in my room and with my music - they work.

Tim

Is there much of a second hand market for Mana Sound bases then? I wouldn't have a clue how much to ask for them.

Are there more than 1 type? I have read posts refering to glass plinths, mine are black MDF (or something similar, from memory)

My 2 cents.

I have soundbases under my NBLs and do not believe they add an effect to the sound. From my experience they seem to make the speaker more efficient. Maybe beyond the intention of the designer?? I have suspended floors and without the SBs the low frequencies resonate in the floor and effect the performance of the speaker.

Does anyone know what type of floors Naim speakers are designed around? If they were designed on concrete then I suspect the SBs are helping people with suspended floors get closer to the intended sound.

Hi John

If the bases work for you on a suspended floor; that's great and makes sense due to more efficient decoupling (?)

I use the cheap alternative of 99p concrete slabs under my Intros on a suspended floor upstairs; (no WAF to worry about here!) and find it to be a good solution. Prettier marble/slate slabs are good to maintain domestic harmony, if necessary.

My SBL's are on a solid concrete floor downstairs, and I presume that this is Naim's ideal mounting surface?

I have (and had) suspended floors, and I think the Mana was a bad idea.

I now have my SBL's on Fraim Chips which were all the good bits of the Mana with none of the bad.

rgds