I'm thinking of buying a pair of 1997 SBL's in black ash that do not have the backs laminated. They are reportedly mint and the seller has used soap on the gaskets and everything seems in order.

I know these have all of the latest updates but for the cabinet update. I've read several times in here that you should buy the ones with the laminated backs because they sound better.

So, my question is how do they sound? What are the differences in the sound?

Seems to me that finding a mint pair of SBL's that are made around 1999 is going to be difficult, i.e. bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If the 1997 pair sounds 99.5% as good as this 1999 pair then....

I've also read in here that laminated pairs in Oak, Cherry and the best Rosewood sound better than the black ash ones. I guess the laminate is thicker.

I spoke to Naim on this and they told me "they both sound awesome."

Thanks

Probably another pays yer money takes your choice issue which probably depends to a large extent on the rest of the system.

The difference in early 90s and late 90s ones (£500) may fund for example a 102 to 82 (£600) or a 180 to 250 (£400) upgrade giving more bang per buck

From what I've heard the SBL's will tax any system. Currently, my system consists of a NAC112, NAP200, CDX2, Stageline and a VPI Scout TT. I'm using stock Naim cables and NACA5.

I'm planning on upgrading to either a NAC202 or maybe a NAC282 in the next couple months. I'm also going to be adding some power supplies.

I'm currently using a pair of B&W N803's. I sold these and with the money I can buy 2 pairs of SBL's. These SBL's are $1650 (US). I think this is a little high, but they are mint so...

Bus--

The latest cabinet SBLs do indeed sound better than the non-laminated back ones. The newer ones offer more of the same--the character of the SBL remains, though improved. Although I know people who could tell the difference, I could not unless it were in a direct A/B.

$1650 for a non-laminated back pair sounds a bit high, but if they are mint, with boxes and crossovers, then not so bad. One pair would be plenty...

And you would definitely benefit from adding a hicap and 282....SBLs are INCREDIBLY revealing.

Best,

Bob

The greatest difference is in the driver unit upgrade. I've heard about the different finishes and also the different backs having different sound qualities, but in my opinion the driver upgrade is the only one that makes a noticable difference. I've heard a half dozen SBL's and I think your time is much better spent positioning the SBL's properly than worrying about small variances in construction. Just make sure that you buy a unit with the newer driver (drivers are all black) or make sure you're getting enough of a deal to pay Naim for the upgrade kit.

Keep in mind that every one with the newer back also had the driver upgrade. I think that a lot of people are comparing old back/old driver to new back/new driver when a more valid comparison would be old back/new driver to new back/new driver. Old back/new driver offers best VFM.

As for the amp requirements, I've run mine with a 180 then now a 250, and others report success with a 200. They're nowhere near as power hungry as isobariks!

Graham

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Originally posted by ghunter:
Keep in mind that every one with the newer back also had the driver upgrade. I think that a lot of people are comparing old back/old driver to new back/new driver when a more valid comparison would be old back/new driver to new back/new driver. Old back/new driver offers best VFM.

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I think this is a great point.

Ideally for me, the SBL's would be Cherry, Mint and Serials after 160XXX. However, I'm thinking beggers can't be choosers. Unless somebody has some for sale, I should probably just pick these up and get onto the listening.

Graham is half right....

The new bass drivers do make the biggest difference. But the newer cabinets represent a noticeable improvement also. So if you can find a set with the newer cabinets, go for them--they really are better. I had two sets for a brief period--the cherry ones I have now and a black pair with the upgraded drivers. The cherry ones were noticeably better.

Positioning is also very important, and optimal placement and setup is critical. A well set up set of old SBLs will sound better than a brand new set just plonked down, and better by a surprising margin.

SBLs also benefit much more from quality than quantity. SBLs will sound better driven by a 52/90-3 than from a 82/Supercap/250. (Been there, done that!) So anything you can do to the front end and preamp will reward you tremendously. The flip side is that you will be able to hear how good your 112 is.

Enjoy!

Bob

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Originally posted by Bob Edwards:
The flip side is that you will be able to hear how good your 112 is.

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Everyone is always picking on my little 112

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Graham is half right...

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Bob, you sound like my wife! (only she tells me this far more often than you do, and most of the time I'm completely wrong)

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I'm also guessing that they have the crossovers. Aren't they connected to the back of the speakers?

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For that price, they should have the crossovers! Make sure you ask, as they were also sold without the crossovers for customers who took them active out of the box. Mine came without crossovers, and I had a hell of a time finding a used pair. Naim sells them for just under $400 new.

If it were me, I would wait until I found a newer pair for under $1,500 with crossover or closer to $1,000 for an older pair without. This pair seems to be on the very high end of the price scale, and if I remember correctly is very close to what dealers were selling the very last of the SBL production run for a few years ago. You will most definitely be able to find a better deal if you wait.

Graham

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Everyone is always picking on my little 112

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I think the 112 is a great little preamp. I a/b'ed one with a 102 a few years ago and was amazed how close it came to a preamp that used to sell for double what the 112 goes for.

Regardless of what you do with the preamp, look at getting a hicap as soon as possible if you buy the SBL's. You'll notice a huge difference both upstream (better sound quality from the preamp) and downstream (better sound quality from the power amp once it doesn't have a preamp sucking some of its power away).

It's a never ending road...

Graham

Bus--

Graham is exactly right....

I'd suggest getting a pair of SBLs--once you get used to them there is no going back. And definitely add a hicap ASAP.

I didn't mean to denigrate the 112--it is a very good preamp. With SBLs, though, a better preamp will make the system sound substantially better.

And I've got a pair of SBLs in cherry with S/N of 160xxx...but they're not for sale.... Sorry.....

Bob

Bob,

Yeah I know you weren't coming down on the 112. As soon as I made the deal on the 112 I started to think I made a mistake. I should have held out for at least a 202. There's a 282 for sale on Audiogon now for $4000. I think I might be better off going with a 202 and Hicap2, but thinking ahead a 282 now and then wait for a S/H Hicap2 to come up might be the best long term approach. There's also a 202 for sale at about $2400. A bit high I think.

If you change your mind on the SBL's let me know. I'm guessing you won't

If you know what your budget is now and what it can be, just go and listen to as many different combinations as you can. These are the balanced systems that make great targets:

http://www.naim-audio.com/products/system_1.html

Make sure you figure out "how much is enough", or you'll find this to be an incredibly expensive hobby as you start flipping your gear. Rest assured that the SBL's can stay with you a long time, though. They could sit behind a CDS3/252/300 and not be out of their league.

Graham

Older SBL's (with new drivers) are still a great speaker.

My walnut pair are 1992 vintage, although I accept that the later cabinets are better.

Check if the tweeters are original. If so; get a dealer to replace them. You WILL hear the difference.

Cleaner treble makes the bass sound cleaner too. Strange but true.

Good luck.

If the tweeters are only 7 years old you think they might need to be replaced?

I spoke to my dealer about Naim speakers and he actually said he didn't like them. I think it is because he doesn't stock any. I'm not sure what skills they have in installing tweeters.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by busaganashi:
I'm currently using a pair of B&W N803's. I sold these

What on earth for? You may have made a terrible mistake selling the N803's for sbl's,would like your opinion after your purchase, and living with the naim speakers for a while.

Well I can tell you now that I like the B&W's. I had them for 3 years. They did most things right, but for me they seldom made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. On rare occasions they did, like when I first heard the Beatles Sgt. Peppers on a 70'ish Parlaphone label LP.

For instance, these Proac Future .5's have better highs and mid-range to me, but probably because of the ribbon tweeter. It just sounds better. The bass sucks though. It sounds like I'm using a subwoofer and it isn't dialed in at all.

The Proac 2.5's I'm auditioning now I think sound better as well. They seem great from top to bottom, just like the B&W's but with a bit more feeling to the music. Just more involving for me on the blues and jazz that I like to listen to. I was also looking at the Neat Elite. I think a used pair of the Elites would give me a great speaker and enough to Hicap my system with the left over cash.

I guess I just want something different and I think there is something better out there for me (I hope my wife doesn't read this ). Everyone seems to love the SBL's and I gotta think there is a good reason for that.

[This message was edited by busaganashi on Wed 16 June 2004 at 3:27.]

"Everyone seems to love the SBL's and I gotta think there is a good reason for that."

Not quite. I don't like them. Then again, I'm a fussy bastard. As usual, YMMV.

James

Well, when more people have positive things to say about any hifi product let alone speakers that tells me that they are pretty good.

What don't you like about them?

Although I fall squarely into the "love them, but will upgrade them someday after the rest of my system is sorted out" camp, I agree with James' synopsis that they're not for everyone. A number of people whose audio-related opinions I greatly respect do not care for the SBL.

If you haven't heard them yet (or at the very least a few other types of Naim speakers) then make sure you know what you're getting yourself into, especially before buying a pair at the high end of the price range. If you were getting them at a phenomenal price, then you could turn around and sell them for the same as you paid, no harm done. If not, this experiment might cost you a few hundred dollars and a few months of hassle trying to minimize your loss.

Also keep in mind that these are extremely fussy speakers in terms of setup. You will need to reseal them when you get them into your room - have you considered the cost of a new gasket and found a dealer with stock? Also plan on spending a good amount of time positioning them properly, as they like to be close but not too close to (solidly built) rear walls.

Caveat emptor...

Graham