I have always been curious as to why these great pieces of music seem to be so much less popular than the Brandenberg Concertos of Bach. There is so much in them, and every emotion music is capable of conveying from comical things to the most profound joy and sadness, and huge energy, that it seems odd they are not better known. As a player I am aquainted with more than half of them and have long sought recordings which halfway did justice to their expressive range.

I used to have the set done by Marriner on Decca with Thurston Dart playing the continuo keyboard. I never cared for it as a whole, and somehow the harpsichord was desperately forward as if to underline the importance of Dart, who really was a great player, but the effect was waring to say the least. Another problem was the insistent Heifetz-like vibrato which allowed for no particular range of tonal expression in the strings. It was all too intense as a sonority, so getting Pinnock on Arckiv was a significantly easier listen, except that there seemed to be only two expressive devices used. Fast and furious, or slightly slower and projected far too directly for any of the light and shade to be allowed to blossom. both seemed to lack a proper insight into the very real human emotions being probed. In fact, having sampled many sets over the years, I had quite given up finding truly great musical performances till I discovered Adolph Busch's recordings done in USA in 1946 (on American Columbia) had surfaced on Pearl.

I never expected to be so affected by this music, and the performances are consistent in letting the music's natural expressive range through. For me the zenith is the slow movement in the B minor cooncerto. Words cannot describe the effect the performance achieves. It reduced me to tears quite as if I'd been to the concert hall such was the agony contained within such simple piano phrasing. Everything falls away and the connection to old Handel's musical world here is complete, so that the olden recording is not even an issue. If anyone loves this music, then give this set a listen. It has been my discovery of perhaps the last ten years! For the record the strings number 17 and (amazing for the time) a harpsichord is employed, but is blissfully drowned in the robuster music as it is in the concert hall. What a relief that is after too many recordings where the engineer puts a microphone so close you can hear the action and a completely impossible balance.

Fredrik Fiske

Welcome back, Fredrik. It's nice to see another classical devotee return.

Generally, I'm not big on Handel, but from your description of these pieces, I'm intrigued and may see if I can hunt them down. Busch was a superb musician and I have thoroughly enjoyed everything I have heard from him.


"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Hi Fred,

Agree with you totally on the emotional content of Handel's music - he can move me far more than anyone else, with the exception of Vaughan Williams.

I enjoy this set more than any other Baroque orchestral collection, and the Opus 3 Concertos, plus the Organ Concertos (Op. 4 and 7) are not far behind.

Where I will disagree with you is on the subject of Pinnock's interpretation. I find them very well-ballanced - exhillarating or tender where they need to be. I guess this is more down to the acceptability or not of period performance - I haven't heard the Busch, but I find the trappings of Romantic interpretation of this period not to my taste (understatement alert!). At least it sounds as though he wasn't trying to drown the pieces in an entire symphony orchestra .

Anyway, it's about time someone other than Bach from this era got a shout. Anyone for Rameau, Lully, Couperin, Telemann, Corelli, Purcell or Heinichen?

nick.lees at btinternet.com

Dear Nick,

In a way I cannot adequately describe how Busch acheives his tenderness, except to say that the results make Pinnock sound terribly well play (and recorded of course), but dull by comparison, and, yes, that is something that I'd ask to go and listen to the records not my advocacy to convince yourself of. The Busch Orchestra actually use a very wide variety of intensity of vibrato rather like each line is "sung." Also they play with phenomenal articulation when the music requires it, but I'd say their expresioon of poigniancy within the un-sentimentalised phrase is brought about in the same way that many of the greatest string soloiusts of the early and mid- twentieth century did, by a slight softening of the sonority, rather than any significant drop in actual weight. Tone colour is used rather than invariably relying on dynamic contrast. Technically this one signoficant advantage of using gut strings as the busch band did, and of course Pinnock does too.

Certainly there is nothing romantised in the way this music is played, but for the modern listener not used to the old style of Vienese Violin School, there is a large reliance on the glide, or slide (refered to in Italian obviously as Portamanto) with goes both down and up. With Busch this is never crude or heavy handed, and always applied to the phrase within the context of a slur and a possition shift. It may well be a moot point whether the absense of this in the Pinnock is not entirely wrong, because it was a phenomenon found among string players (in the violin family) from the time of Monteverdi to most of the twentieth century. I doubt if London players of the 1720s failed to use it. I love it but it is a shock for those accustumed only to modern performance or the uncertain recreations of a style never recorded, it might be a fair surprise!

Equally there is next to no reliance on wide tempo modifications to make expressive points and most of the speeds are actually as fast as say Pinnock, but there is far greater variety and subtle integration of tempi right across each concerto relating tempi in the usual Germanic way (as seen at its height in recent times in the best work of Klemeperrer in the 1950s). This leads to on or two unexpected tempi both slower and faster than expected, but the band is so fine that ensemble (in the days before cut and paste editing) is remarkably secure and firm.

I hope you go and find these discs. They are wonderful.

Fredrik Fiske

quote:

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
it was a phenomenon found among string players (in the violin family) from the time of Monteverdi to most of the twentieth century. I doubt if London players of the 1720s failed to use it.

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I know you're not among the youngest, but how do you know this for sure?

I have always enjoyed the Händel Concerti Grossi, though I have to admit I used to listen to them more frequently twenty years back. I have always been quite happy with the accounts I have had - Malgoire in the seventies, and Hogwood and Pinnock in the nineties.

Like Nick I kind of shudder at the thought of a ensemble of romantic slide fiddlers playing Händel. However, to each his own. Thanks for reminding me of this music. I'm playing some as I'm typing this.

Herman

Hi Fredrik.

Fiske is a very well known name among organists, as there was a Frederik Fiske which was a very important organ builder in America. Perhaps you are related to him?

I understand your point about Pinnock. I don’t know the Busch version, but I think there is a lot to be questioned about the historic legitimacy of ‘period’ renderings’. I particularly agree with you when you mention the simplicity of emotional means of expression of Pinnock. His strength lies, I think, on his instrumental perfection and ensemble coherence, and also on the fact that he is very regular, in the sense that he does play what is written. One can therefore build one’s own views on what he plays. It is more or less like reading a score (well, comparatively). However, I do like his very beautiful sound, and the rhythmic and intonation precision of his recordings.

I therefore have no a priori preference between ‘historical’ or a ‘non historical’ performance. There are only two organological questions that really have a strong importance to me: I don’t like baroque music played on romantic organs (the romantic organ is, in fact, a very different instrument from a baroque one) and I usually prefer clavier music to be played on the harpsichord and not the piano, because I actually prefer the harpsichord in that repertoire: it is more transparent, makes it more easy to follow the different threads of polyphony and allows for a different kind of expression than the modern grand (but I must confess that my preference for the harpsichord is really based on the fact that I just love harpsichord sound, and I find unpedaled piano sound rather grey, although it very much depends on the instrument, of course).

As for ‘portamenti’ you may be right; but then you may be wrong. It is purely a question of personal preference. Regarding vibrato, I think one may safely assume it was a special effect. The reason I say this is, chiefly, the fact that vibrato was common in human voice organ stop imitations (the Vox humana has more often than not a tremulant) but not so the ‘violin’, ‘gamba’ and so on stops.

One think I actually don’t like in some interpretations is the credo in legato. Now here we may be quite certain that legato was a special expressive device: the basic flow of the notes was detached (not staccato). When you examine vocal polyphony this is quite obvious: there are consonants and melismas. Also, in organ music it is often impossible to play legato (because of fingering and pedaling limitations and I am convinced even the harpsichord was meant to be played detached (when you play a chord on a harpsichord there is a very pronounced ‘reverberation’ effect in the case, which allows you to, for instance, shift the entire hand without chopping the music).

Well, these are random ramblings, but I’m glad you brought that subject up.

And, as Nick mentioned, baroque isn’t only Bach, and you cannot play Corelli the same way you would Bach of Heinichen, let alone the special case of French music which is actually played differently from what is written. I would expect much more portamenti in Vivaldi than in Bach, for instance. Haendel, being so influenced by Italians, is actually closer to the Concerto Grosso form than Bach.


Regards,

R d S

Dear Herman,

Yes, I am sorry, but the very, VERY (having known amazingly both Handel AND JS Bach personally - no only jocking!)old fool is back. Try the book by Arnold Dolmetch called "On the Interpretation of the Music of Seventeenth and Eightennth Centuries." The was published in london before 1914, so obtaining an origianal (which I have) may prove difficult. It has been reprinted many times, and for all I know may still be available. It It is a book of almost equal importance to the modern performer of Barroque music as Quantz. However that is specifically why I reverted to the use of the words used to describe Portamanto in England at the time of Handel. No of course I don't know how Portamento was used or whether just as Busch employs it. What is certain is that it WAS used and occasionally one assumes in such a lazy and inartisitc way as to irritate writers of the period: Hence we know it existed and was a regular part of the playing of the violin family. The same criticism could easily be levelled at some of the sliding found in recordings made in London in the 1920s, even if Busch seems to escaped contempory critics in this respect. However, I quite see that personal taste will determine, quite reasonably, whethther any individual listener likes the effect even when done as beautifully as the Busch strings do it. In fact all I was doing was pointing out that some may be deeply surprised by this one aspect of the playing style, rather than any personal comment on whethther it is correct, and within the style of the time.

I hope that is alright for you, and it is not even a quedtion of my opinion...

Dear R de S

You may not find the portamento too distressing, I suspect, but the issue you raise is that, at least, vibrato was one of several special expressive devices often reserved for perhaps one note within a phrase. I believe Viotti regarded it as something that benefitted ALL the notes. What this dseems to show is that it may well have been used with discretion, but certainly not that it was used ALL the time. I guess that an optional expressive device would most likely not be used as a continuous effect on organ stops in imitation of instrumental timbres.

I so agree about the employment of over large organs for Bach and the others. It simply does not allow for the bass to speak fast and clean enough for the lines to come out clearly, and intelligigbly. I have mentioned this to several Cathedral Organists, and only had a satisfactory response from one over it - most just point out how much old Bach would have love the BIG SOUND! I must say I was unconvinced! The actual acoustic of very large churchs is just as ruinous as the organs built in them, mostly during the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

To get back to the Busch performances. Perhaps the single most startling thing after the portamanto is the fact that they play which a huge armoury of tone colours, but that they reserve the legatto touch for very rare use, while generally using a natural detache style or even occasionally an energetic staccato that is far more impressive than you could easily imagine, not least because so little playing of the time was like that.

Fredrik Fiske

quote:

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Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske:
[...]
I so agree about the employment of over large organs for Bach and the others. It simply does not allow for the bass to speak fast and clean enough for the lines to come out clearly, and intelligigbly. I have mentioned this to several Cathedral Organists, and only had a satisfactory response from one over it - most just point out how much old Bach would have love the BIG SOUND! I must say I was unconvinced! The actual acoustic of very large churchs is just as ruinous as the organs built in them, mostly during the 19th and early 20th Centuries.
[...]
Fredrik Fiske

---

I agree with you about the organ stops not imitating what was an option.

Regarding romantic organs, I think your organist friend is right about Bach liking the very big sound; but I think he would have liked nothing else. It is not only the pedals that are slow: even the manuals (in the 8' range) are very lazy and you cannot get counterpoint to be listened at all. Furthermore, they tend to lack the attacks - the transient sounds, chiffs, pings and buzzes - that happen when you press the key sharply.

But Bach liked a very powerful organ. The Wenzelkirche Zacharias Hildebrandt organ, which was very probably designed by Bach, has been restored, and it is hugely powerful. But also very sharp and very precise. But I do not want to hijack the thread!

If I can I will try to listen to the Busch version. I might very well like it.


Regards,

R d S

Dear R de s,

I am not the slightest bit worried about someone turning the thread, though I don't suppose there was much mileage in it anyway! All I was trying to do was encourage people to investigate some great music making, and if it works then its worth it.

It is a funny thing, because I love the music of old Bach as well, and have only a fairly sketchy knowledge of most of the oevre, and a firm grip on a much smaller selection. What I have never really found is an organist of discretion who put musical values and clarity over the all too common overblown thing. I am in two minds about hurford, quite like Herrick, and sort of gave up after that. I have the Leipzig Chorales (at least the first disc of a two disc set) played by Michel Chapuis on Valois. I think they represent something much closer to the ideal than to two H's mentioned earlier. I have read your posts before - esoecially on the Art of Fugue, and reckon you might point me in a sound direction.

Yours sincerely, Fredrik Fiske

Dear Fredrik:

This is a very interesting subject. Yes, it is very difficult to get Bach right. The organ is, as you well know, a very rich instrument, and it is actually difficult not to use its full resources. Besides that, we actually know Bach asked for a very powerful plenum sound. So, most organists, specially in the plenum pieces, just use all the principals and mixtures and the pedal reeds – that is, the organo pleno. Michel Chapuis is no different in that aspect. He is different because he plays much faster than anybody else and manages a sort of tension building up that is quite taking. Also, he often uses Ahrend organs, with few very colourful stops.

However, using strong plena with Bach music tends to make it very difficult to get to the most interesting part of Bach’s writing - the interplay between the voices.

If you are willing to put up with old recordings, and a not perfect sound, you might be willing to consider the old recordings of Helmut Walcha, that have just been released by Archiv (DGG). They are mono, of course, and took place in 1947 (rather good sound) and 1952 (there is a hint of compression with very full cords at the end of some pieces). The registration is sparing and different from everybody else’s – it is usually rather bright (but not enormous) with the intention of making it possible to listen to all the voices; this is helped by a very precise articulation, that makes rhythmic patterns very important (as he tends to play them quite detached). Every voice is played independently - he was an impressive virtuoso - and you do get the contrapuntal picture very clearly.

The latter version (in Alkmaar and Strasbourg) is not so good, because the Strasbourg organ is hardly appropriate for Bach and the Alkmaar recordings are very odd - Walcha plays in a very broad acoustic, and therefore rather slowly, but the sound engineer removed all reverberation.

I am thinking of writing a review of these records, but I can’t seem to find the time; it will be a rather long one, in the typically boring style that seems to be my hallmark…

I hope this helps

Cordially yours,

R d S

Dear R de S,

That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I think the organ can have a tremendouus effect but what I'd like is what you have mentioned - a CLEAR recording, majoring on the part writing. Recording quality can be slightly dodgy if it does not get in the way; then I can ignore it. I grew up with half 78s and half LPs, because there were some absolutely lovely 78s not also covered on LP. thus I can listen happily through even serious bacon frying!

Please write your revues.

Thanks from Fredrik Fiske

Dear Fredrik:

See this. It is much too long, but I got carried away! If you don't feel like reading so much verbiage, browse through the titles. There is also a one paragraph conclusion!


Best regards from Rodrigo de Sá

Just a sort of post-script:

I loaned these disc to a violinist friend of fifty years professional experience in London and elsewhere in the UK. She has them now, I guess, for quite some time going on her reaction to the way the performers were doing their work.

"Ah yes, I played these in London in an Orchestra of about that size, just after the War. It was lovely then before all this authenticity stuff got in the way. We just played the music, and you know, most of it was really stylish. People like Jacques and so on. But I never heard Busch. I never knew he was that good."

I know this is second hand, but it shows a very interesting attitude in someone who has never lost her enthusiasm for music and is still teaching the violin and playing actively in a small band of strings she leads from the front desk as Busch did. (My last playing was in her band). She was amazed at the quality of ensemble which made her half believe there must have been someone conducting, and she wondered at the even-ness of the tempi across movements, maintaining that that is the hardest thing when it comes to leading from the front desk. "How super to hear a tempo sustained so evenly without a hint of the metronone!"

I was delighted to let her borrow them.

Fredrik Fiske

Given the topicality of this I searched (manually) this out as I think it has its relevance viz a viz the Interpretation and Beethoven 9 Threads

Fredrik Fiske

Dear Fredrik

Thanks for finding this thread.

I have been fond of the Haendel opus 6 , which surely is some of the most substantial baroque ensemblemusic ever written, since I heard it
for the first time many years ago.
I understand from your words, that the Busch-ensemble communicates the emotional contentent of these works in a sober and not overly romantic way, and I imagine from your description something like (and more expressive than) Boyd Neel or Yehudi Menuhin (two artists whose Haendel-recordings I always have appreciated because of their noble and pure style). So I will aquire the Busch, if it is still available.

Of course no interpretation can claim to be authentic. I never use the word. I prefer the word : Informed. Because there is nowadays a lot of informations about interpretation of baroque music to be seriously considered. At the same time there is the possibility of playing period instruments,and even if this does not guarantee a musically satisfying result on its own, it opens up some rich new tecnical and musical possibilities, which in fact were totally unavailable to the common musician before say 1960. Compare e.g. the old english catedralorgans with the restored old baroque organs, a propos. Well, a few specialists started before the war, but this was not common practice. I think that the historically informed movement has enriched our understanding of baroquemusic in a fantastic way, to say the least. I do not find it necessary to seek out arguments for that.

Venlig hilsen
Poul

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pe-zulu:
Dear Fredrik

...

I have been fond of the Haendel opus 6 , which surely is some of the most substantial baroque ensemblemusic ever written, since I heard it for the first time many years ago.

[This I so agree with...]

I understand from your words, that the Busch-ensemble communicates the emotional contentent of these works in a sober and not overly romantic way, and I imagine from your description something like (and more expressive than) Boyd Neel or Yehudi Menuhin (two artists whose Haendel-recordings I always have appreciated because of their noble and pure style). So I will aquire the Busch, if it is still available.

[I would say that this is about right. Busch can be quite serious, but never portentous. yet always open to the wit and wisdom and most of all the nobility of the music...]

Of course no interpretation can claim to be authentic....

[That is the truest thing said on the subject I am sure...]

Venlig hilsen...

Unquote

Dear Poul,

As far as I know this set is still available on Pearl, which is also called Pavillion Records, and based in UK. I am sure that if you read what I wrote in the first two or three posts above (written last February, then you will see what to expect. I would rate it as in the top three things I aquired in 2004 (with Beecham's Haydn London Sympphonies and Walcha's Mono Bach Organ recordings) and that 2004 has been my most successful record buying year for perhaps ten years!

Fredrik Fiske

Dear Fredrik

Yes you are quite right about the Walcha/Bach.
I was lucky to aquire most of the old Lübeck- and Cappel-recordings on vinyl during the 1970ties,but I too had certainly to get the CD-transfer when it was released earlier this year.
I have heard and listened to more than 25 complete recordings and many incomplete recordings of Bachs organworks, and of that lot the Walcha mono is in my view mandatory for any lover of Bachs organmusic. It is one of the three Bach/organ-sets I would bring with me to the desert island. The two others are Marie-Claire Alain (Erato1988-1996ca) and Wolfgang Rübsam
(his Naxos-version).
Venlig hilsen
Poul