You will have to wait a bit for a proper opinion. I need to listen properly. A first pass showed this is quite a challenge.

I am not terribly happy with the recording quality either.

When I have really listened I will write again.

regards
Geoff

About the EMI package, Klemperer's orchestra (in the concertos) sounds just gorgeous to my ears. That's why I bought the discs really.

I'd be too interested though, FF, to read what you think of Barenboim's playing. I must admit I never liked his persona as a whole but on these concertos I have a very hard time hearing the distinctive form of poetry Beethoven deserves. I just don't recognize Beethoven at any time.

Barenboim might have been good for Mozart maybe - but then this may be due to the fact that Mozart leaves me stone cold in the first place ...

Dear Cheese,

I had these Barenboim/Klemperer/Philharmonia EMI recordings of the Five Piano Concertos on the individual full pirced HMV LPs and so this has been a reacquaintance - one that comes after having Steven Bishop's Philips set [on LPs] and Artur Schnabel's LPO/LSO set with Sargeant on HMV 78s and subsequent Arabesque/EMI [Keith Hardwick] transfers.

I agree that Barenboim seems less in tune with the mercurial nature of the music. Schnabel is splendid, if somewhat roughly played in details, which I think suits the music, as he certainly understood and brings out, the range of the music.

Bishop produced a sort of idealised studio version which does not scale the emotional haights as Schnabel does, but it flawlessly played. A prime central recommendation ...

No! For me the attraction of the Klemperer/Barenboim colaboration is quite as much what the orchestra and Klemperer bring to the issue.

I would not want to part with them again now though.

I shall write a longer consideration of the studio recordings in this set in the symphonies in a while now I have returned to them, and I do think this set is simply compelling, if like so much great and compelling music making, hardly flawless!

The other set I want to investigate is the live 1957 colaboration between Arraw and Klemperer in the Third, Fourth and Fidfth Piano Concertos. I would expect nothing other than sheer musical genius from these! Even through mono BBC recordings off air.

ATB from George

Now that I have had a good spell listening to my recently-purchased EMI set, I am satisfied that it represents almost unbelievable value. The Barenboim Concertos are quite different interpretations from my Perahia set on Philips, but they certainly grab my attention. As George suggested, this may have a lot to do with Klemperer's contribution. For me, there is only one diappointment, the "Eroica" The opening movement, marked "Allegro con brio" is anything but. But I won't worry. I have his quite magnificent mono version of the "Eroica" (EMI Great Recordings of the Century). And one or two of the BBC/Testament issues.
Of my more modern recordings, I have the Zinman/Tonhalle cycle and find this more satisfying than the Mackerras/SCO set.
Happy days!
Ken

Dear Ken,

Happy days indeed! The choices currently given the record buying community is unprecendented.

I completely agree that the weak link in the EMI stereo set from Klemperer is the first movement of the Eroica [and possibly the whole of the Fifth Symphony], but as you suggest that is neatly addressed in the supplimentary issues of the earlier recordings on EMI GROTC, and not at premium price either!

On a different tack, a couple of months ago I listened to Radio Three one Saturday and was broadcast the Fifth Symphony from Joss van Immerseel. The orchestra was a carefully assembled virtuosic group of HIP musicians playing on Bethoevn/Vienna style period instruments [very different from Bach period instruments, and at a higher pitch and using much heavier strings, with A at 435 Hz]. This was totally compelling music making, and will follow soon for me! This was the first truly HIP Beethoven Symphony perfomance I have come across that was completlely compelling in the way that, on modern instruments, Klemperer is.

Happy days indeed!

ATB from George

PS: After a few weeks of disruption auditioning new digital replay devices, I am back in my natural surroundings here! I have a settled plan for the future of my digital replay now, so back to the music!!!!!

George,

While Klemperer's Beethoven Fifth in the EMI set is for me, less dramatic the Carlos Kleiber with the VPO, There seems to be a repressed excitement about the performance which makes it wonderful.

In my modern versions, I find Zinman uncharacteristically dull. He is fast, but the feeling I get is of an orchestra getting it done and out of the way. I much prefer Mackerras with the SCO, so I have three versions, all different but all of which I will play again and again.

Thanks for the tip about van Immerseel. I will look into his versions.

Regards,
Ken

Dear Ken,

In regard to the istances I mentioned [Eroica first movement and the Fifth Symphony] I mention them not for those who cannot accept their slightly slow speed rather than anything else. I actually find both Klemperer's recorded stereo Eroica and Fifth among the most satisfying on records!

I have never found that fast is same as exiting and slow dull. For me it is about momentum and inner tension and life in the music, and this is not related to speed so much as phrasing clarity, and something indefinable which marks out the great performers.

I quite agree that these two performances have musical value beyond words even if for some they may remain a little controversial.

Strangely Immerssel had a similarly sort of pressed down excitement as well, which is why I enjoyed it so much. Miles from the fast and furious brigade, though certainly Immerseel is hardly slow but not driven into stilted phrasing and short breathed tension building, by too regimented an approach to the metronome either. I was surprised. His tempi are approximately as Klemperer's in the 1955 set of the Fifth Symphony ... Fast but not ruinously so ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:


The other set I want to investigate is the live 1957 colaboration between Arraw and Klemperer in the Third, Fourth and Fidfth Piano Concertos.

True story. Back in the 50's, Arrau and Klemperer collaborated in the Chopin f minor Piano Concerto. During the rehearsal, Klemperer kept chiding Arrau for his phrasing, dynamics, tempo, ect, all but going to the piano to tell the poor Chilean how it should be done. Arrau, always the gentleman, bore it with rigid stoicism and gritted teeth. Many years later, Arrau spots K at a party, walks up to him and in no uncertain terms rips him a new one. Klemperer is flabbergasted and stands in stunned silence.


Years later, Arrau admits that the Chopin f minor with Klemperer is one of his most cherished and inspired concerts. Such are the ups and downs of artistic creation...


Noyes

Dear Noyes,

There is another rather sad story of klemperer and Schnabel preparing a performance of one of the Beethoven Piano Concertos innthe USA during the Wartime, and these two Titans hardly saw eye to eye.

There was a big problem getting their two ideas of the correct tempi together, and Schnabel stopped things and asked what tempo would be adpted [in the opening tutti without piano], and Klemperer said, "Mine."

Schnabel snapped back, "But is it Beethoven's tempo?"

Clearly this was going to be awkward, but they all got through it!

Which all might make you think Klemperer was no accompanist! He seems to have been accompanist of choice for a number of really great artists not the least Clara Haskil, and in her early days when Klemperer was working in Hungary, Annie Fischer, Menuhin, Oistrack, Barenboim, and many solo singers, who claimed that Klemperer was one the best.

I can imagine that Arraw and Klemperer would come at this music from different view-points, but according to what was written at the time those 1957 Beethoven performances went rather well, and the rehearsals were painless! It may surprise some to know that Klemperer was a great adept at the Piano Concertos of Chopin!

There is a great recording of one of them with Noveaes, which is on the list to get. They are quite easy to get wrong. They can be become pure vituosic flash, but really they are great music.

In the big EMI box set, I have been utterly captured by the Choral Fantasy. An amazing piece of occasional music that diserves to be much better known!

ATB from George

George has asked me to keep this from getting locked as he has one further contribution to make.

regards, Tam

Tam, George,
Not just one more, I hope.
I have now spent some time with the van Immerseel Beethoven symphony cycle. At first, it sounded wonderful, though more for the sound than the music but after repeated listening, I decided that for me, it was just too prosaic. I shall not be keeping this set, though I will be reluctant to part with the superb booklet.
A revelation however was getting Mackerras' RLPO set. To my ears, this is substantially better both musically and sonically than his more recent Hyperion cycle and thoroughly enjoyable. Just one particular aspect (of many) which really bowled me over - I have never heard an "Ode to Joy" sound quite so joyful before hearing this.
Regrettably, I have limited shelf space so I shall keep two complete cycles (Klemperer/Philharmonia stereo) and Mackerras/RLPO) together with a few single CDs. I think that these will give me all I need from these magnificent works.
In time, Zinman/Tonhalle, van Immerseel/Anima Eterna and Mackerras/SCO will probably be appearing at my local charity shop.
Ken

I think it may be just the one more from George, who has now departed the forum, but I think it more than likely I'll have plenty more to say on Beethoven.

I know what you mean about the Mackerras/RLPO set - it is probably the most consistently satisfying and surprising I own (and that takes something given the quantity of times I've listed to it). The SCO set is more problematic. The concerts on which it was based were some of the finest musical experiences my life. The engineers who recorded them should, quite frankly, be ashamed of themselves. It isn't simply that the quality is poor, though it is, but more than that, a lot of the magic has been lost in translation - this is especially true of the SCO's fine wind section who have been done no favours. I still enjoy the set, but mainly because of the memories it brings.

Might I suggest one more disc well worth seeking out - Donald Runnicles and the Atlanta Symphony on Telarc playing the 9th symphony. The recording quality, as one expects from Telarc, is superb, but the way the tension bubbles throughout the performance is quite something.


regards, Tam

Tam,
Christmas is coming, so the Runnicles 9th is now on my Amazon wish list.
Regards,
Ken

I have just listened to the Choral Fantasy and the Emperor Piano Concerto with Barenboim and the New Philharmonia conducted by Klemperer.

It always amazes me how fine this is. Not like Edwin Fischer/Philharmonia/Furtwangler perhaps, but a different idea of the music that unfolds with grace, and power, and a deal of good humour as well.

I shall order the live Testamant [BBC broadcast] recordings with Arraw and Klemperer from the 1957 Beethoven Festival concerts in the Royal Festival Hall as soon as I am paid in the next ten days.

I also feel like getting the Solomon recordings of 3, 4, and 5, as I alread have 1 and 2, and in the Second have found nothing quite like it.

In the First, I still have not found a performance more gamesome and apt as the 1932 recording with Artur Schabel [LSO/Sargent], but I suspect that the rather unlikely [at first glance] pairing of Klemperer with Claudio Arraw might well yield a rather pleasing musical insight!

ATB from George

Tam,
I have now bought the Runnicles 9th, and I agree, it is very special. The orchestral work is most beautifully played and recorded and the chorus is almost unbelievably good. Runnicles seems to keep control of the piece in a very understated way and the music speaks for itself. (Well, I know what I mean even if I don't express it correctly).
This one (I think) is going to get played quite a lot.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Regards,
Ken

A quick update to say that I have ordered not the Beethoven Third, Fourth, and Emperor Piano Concertos [on Testament, live in 1957 with Arraw in the RFH] as I suspected would be next, but rather some rarities from Klemperer, which fall outside his mythically narrow reperoire!

Dvorak New World Symphony
Berlioz Fantastic Symphony
Haydn Symphonies 88 to 104

Klemperer was one of the great pioneers of new Twentieth Century Music, especially in his days in Berlin up to 1933, and his repertoire was massive, ranging from Bach [which may well be not regarded as invariably all that perceptive], to Schoenberg, which was lauded while the music was still fresh ink on the page.

Both his readings of the New World, and Fantastic Smphonies were very highly regarded in the concert hall [as were his infrequent performances of Tchaikowski], and I used the have the Fantastic on LP.

It was superb!

ATB from George

[Typos corrected after timing out on the possibility of editing, sorry]

The five CDs arrived today!

Dvorak New World Symphony
Berlioz Fantastic Symphony
Haydn Symphonies 88 to 104

A few additional pleasant surprises as well:

The Berlioz is aptly coupled with the Overture and Dream Pantomime Music from Humperdink's Hansel and Gretel. The last time I listened to this music was when I played in it! In fact I have never heard the Dream Pantomime Music except while playing in it! Lovely!

The New World comes not as I had thought with the Schubert Unfinished, but the Fifth Symphony in B Flat. This is more to my taste, as I have the Unfinished in Boult's splendid BBC Legends issue, which is unlikely to be bettered for me, and Klemperer's recording of Schubert's Fifth was one of my most treasured Schubert records on LP. To have it back is grand.

And the Haydn symphonies presented are 88, 92 The Oxford - one of my real favourites], 95, 98, 100 [The Military], 101 [The Clock], 102, and 104 [The London]. The omission of 103 [The Drum Roll] is rather sad for me as it is my favourite from Haydn. Often I think it is my favourite Symphony!

The recording dates, 1960 to 1972, rather suggest to me that Klemperer was following his usual practice of preparing a recording during the rehearsals for concerts. The is nothing routine about these at all.

I will try to give a detailed idea of each performance in a while, and consider whether perhaps I would recommend these to fellow music lovers. For those I already know, then I say a big yes, but let me attend to the ones I am coming to for the first time.

ATB from George