quote:

Originally posted by dn1:

[On Klemperer's EMI studio stereo cycle]

I'm sure they are not ideal. Over the years I have heard other recordings, which have appealed. I return to them because whenever I upgrade my system, these recordings reveal new depths, whilst others are revealed as one-dimensional. Klemperer and Mravinsky have been the biggest beneficiaries of the keel on my LP12 - with them, there is more to come, and with others I wonder why I spent my money! Norrington and Rattle in particular had a short shelf life.
Klemperer's 9th on the EMI box is a particular favourite - until I heard it, I didn't understand the music. That is the effect that this box set had on me - Klemperer made the music's profundity accessible. If other performances can improve on this, great, but for me Klemperer has unlocked the understanding of much music, and for that I will be eternally grateful.

This point, which forgive me for putting into italic, is exactly my point with respect to the work of Klemperer, and not only in his Beethoven recordings.

quote:

I commend these recording, for anyone who loves the Symphonic Music of Beethoven, and also to those who have found the music is not always so easy. These are so honest and well presented as music making that they compel attention, admiration and even allow for a deepening of understanding of quite why Beethoven himself was a great and revolutionary composer in his day.

I have found in such as the Pastoral, and the early symphonies, where the music is more elusive than The Eroica, The Fifth, and The Choral, that Klemperer’s probing revolutionary [for its time] style, often seems to reveal the sense of the music's reason better than more sweetly gentle or even seemingly better characterised on the surface renderings. This is music making not only to effect a grand introduction, but a lifetime's admiration and love of the music.

I have found that the even more exacting live and early studio performances cited [as the raison d'etre of this thread] are even more probing than the studio set.

I will add that I intend to re-acquire the studio set as well, shortly. I grew up with these performances from a ten year old, and strangely found them utterly compelling from that age.

They are true and honest, and most of all durable readings, that help the listener into the heart of the music. For what other purpose could a performance exist!

ATB from George

dn1,

Great point ! Klemperer benefits from a good sound system.



George,

Did I miss it or are you going to comment on the Arrau collaboration ?



Noyes


(PS. Arraw ? Is this a Polish spelling?)

Dear Noah,

I have not yet ordered the Arraw colaboration.

Currently I have the Missa, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies [in the new Vox releases] awaiting. Plus Annie Fischer's [Hungaraton] Piano Sonata Cycle. So I would think that ordering the double-CD set is with three Concertos is off for another month! It will come with the EMI studio set of the Five Piano Concertos and Choral Fantasy [Barenboim], and Nine Symphonies, which EMI has out at budget price.

I never knew that I would get to the end of the Symphonic part of this thread! But it has been possible and further considerations are in the pipeline!

ATB from George

*

This one came today, and is of the same transfers I had alrady been loaned for the consideration.

Nicely presented set, with the Words of the Mass included.

Four days to come from the USA! Not bad at all! Well done amazon.com!

George

This week has seen the newly acquired 1950 Vox set of the Missa Solemnis, the new 1963 live BBC/Testament issue, and the 1965 EMI studio recording played in a row!

The live Testamant issue wins for music, and looses as a recording! It is fairly dim, though reasonably balanced. The EMI studio recording is resplendent, the Vox set rather less so! All three are remarkably similar from the musical standpoint, though with certain significant differences, particularly in the last movement - the Agnus Dei.

The live set is easily the most spiritual and special here, and this is largely also responsible for the extra length of time the performance takes over the two studio sets.

None of this is slowed down music making but somehow paced to monumental perfection. One never notes the tempi during the performances, so natural are they at allowing the tension and release in the music to flower.

I suppose I would suggest the ordering as 1965, the best, the 1950 next and the live 1963 least fine, but this is based on the notion that recording quality has its part to play. For me the live set has a recording "sufficient to the task" while the two studio sets have more clarity, and the EMI is actually an exemplary effort.

Musically I would rank them as 1963, first, 1965 as marginally more accomplished than 1950. I would recommend that the three should be obtained. I shall not be parting with any of the three.

George

quote:

It will come with the EMI studio set of the Five Piano Concertos and Choral Fantasy [Barenboim], and Nine Symphonies, which EMI has out at budget price.

I'd love to know what you'll think of the package, FF. I just got it and I think it sounds more or less OK, but I expected far more soundwise.

I have been listening to those 1957-ish EMI symphonies for 20 years on very 'thinly' pressed vinyl, with up to 40 minutes of music per side. By buying the CD's I expected to hear a strongly beefed-up remastered sound, but this is certainly not the case - the cheap vinyl sounded better.

This doesn't apply to the concertos which do sound better than the 1968 vinyl I also own. These appear to be remastered but again, vinyls sounded much more present, I suspect this is due to the usual difference CD/Vinyl.

*

*

Dear Cheese,

Please may I ask your given Christian name. Calling you Cheese seems like the wrong kick-off.

I had the Klemperer studio set on CD in their mid-eighties first appearance on CD. They were not as grand as a sound as their stereo LP predecessors, inspite of the fact that I did not care for the sonority of the early to late seventies ASD [stereo] issues. The DMM issues on terribly thin vinyl was actually worse in my view. I have no idea yet how the later 96/24 remasterings from the nineties actually sound. But the sonority is secondary to the effect of this devastating music making.

I will definitely get back with my view on whether the newer remasters represent an improvement. The best versions I have heard were the original English Columbia Mono releases on LP, and this in spite of the general poor quality of transfer of tape to LP at the time.

It gives me hope that the 1955 studio performances of the Eroica, Fifth, and Seventh are actually much finer than any of the EMI stereo studio recordings in these early CD transfers, but these were never early CD releases, but subjected to EMI's most brilliant later digital remastering efforts. The other Klemperer releases on later CDs in stereo such as the Mozart series and the Pathetique remain exemplary, so perhaps I may find the company has got these seminal Beethoven recordings well presented at last.

Three weeks till the next wage input!

ATB from George

quote:

Please may I ask your given Christian name. Calling you Cheese seems like the wrong kick-off.

You might be right FF but a name is a name

quote:

English Columbia Mono releases on LP

So this is another recording altogether, I guess ? The Philharmonia box is surely on EMI ?

By the way I find this EMI box to be an absolute must-have if one is prepared to skip some of the symphonies. The 5th sounds downright funny in places to say the least, and leaps far behind the usual Toscanini/Furty/Kleiber/Hvk reference. The 1st, 4th and 5th are, in turn, masterpieces of historical importance.

Dear Friend, Mr Cheese,

You can call me George, or Fredrik - both pass in reality as they are the first two on my birth certoificate and passport. I really hope the later remasterings do justice to the music making contained!

George

see edited message above, thanks.

Dear Cheese,

All the EMI recordings by Klemperer with the Philharmonia up to about 1963 first saw the light of day in Mono releases on the [EMI] English Columbia label, with subsequent releases in Stereo either on English Columbia [very rare as Columbia was dropped as a label by EMI in the mid sixties] or full priced stereo [ASD series] EMI HMV LPs.

From 1957 on the recordings in mono and stereo were similar edits of the same takes. Interestingly [or not] the stereo release of the 1955 Seventh is made of entirely different takes than the original Columbia Mono LP, because only one complete set of takes existed for the stereo recording, due to tape recorder breakdowns. [For this I will cite the note from the fairly rough mid eighties transfer of this recording coupled with the 1957 recording of the Prometheus Overture on an EMI Studio CD]. The stereo performance [first issued on stereo tape in 1955 or '56, and now restored to full glory on Great Recordings of the Century CD, coupled with the contemporary Mono recording of the Fifth] is even finer than the more tidy [technically] performance as issued in Mono - blessed with splendid natural, merely vaguely directional stereo sonics.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Cheese:
By the way I find this EMI box to be an absolute must-have if one is prepared to skip some of the symphonies. The 5th sounds downright funny in places to say the least, and leaps far behind the usual Toscanini/Furty/Kleiber/HvK reference. [Others are] masterpieces of historical importance.

Dear Cheese,

I have just ordered this EMI stereo set, to argument the live performances, recently got from Testament:



I note that they have introduced the [experimental and very well managed] 1955 stereo recording of the Seventh in place of the later [and not my favourite!] performance, which was formerly considered part of the cycle in previous re-issues on LP and CD.

With a lovely set of the Piano Concertos and Choral Fantasy with Barenboim, this is not only very good value [nine CDs for about £30], but really is beginning to look like a first recommendation for a single commercial cycle of the Symphonies in studio recording.

I shall report back later when they have come.

ATB from George

And arrived this morning! Howsat? Amazing, and this is no disappointment. Rather the reverse for reasons I will explain later!

ATB from George

A long and happy session this evening with the Symphonies One, Six, Three, and Eight, and Overtures Leonora One, and Leonora Three, followed by the Chrorl fantasy and Emperor Concerto!

After that I could not possibly write anything sensible, but you may guess that the listening was rather compelling. I had fond memories of these performances. Of the ones I played I only have the Pastoral [Six] at present [some others are also here but in the fairly dreadful mid-eighties transfers], so I shall try to make a proper perspective of the whole set by the weekend! In comparison particularly with the live Testament releases, and one or two other favourites, though these will necessarily be personal choices! Many other great performances exist which I shall not mention! No disrespect to those performances or the people who admire them, is intended!

The new remasterings from 1998-2000, and in one case 1990 are much better than the first generation CDs I have, that remain from the complete set I had when CDs came out, and are very much better than any incarnation [mono or stereo] on LP! More about this again.

ATB from George

George

I was kindly given the Missa Solemnis on LP recently, picked up in one of the Oxfam shops. I have not played it properly yet but now wlll.

Are you aware of this version recorded in 1977 or the artists at all?





regards
Geoff

Dear Geoff,

That recording is played and led by a wonderful collective of musicians. Collegium Aureum was [is?] a very fine [and technically proficient as well] Historically Informed Performance style orchestra, who were more mainstream in their appraoch than say Harnoncourt with his Concentus Musicus, Vienna, who made some revolutionary and sometimes slightly odd performances. Goennenwein is a wonderful conductor of Choirs. I don't know the solo quartet at all, but for a recording I would expect them to be fresh young talents, on their way up. Should be very fine.

I guess from the banding that this is on Vinyl! It will certainly test the tracking!

Have fun, and do post about how you get on. It is a fairly forbidding piece, but the run from the Credo to the end of the Agnus Dei is one massive span of sheer joy and emotion, and the very ending is such a mystery! Looking forward to reading about how you get on!

ATB from George

Goennenwein was a superb conductor. There is a Bach B minor on old Nonesuch Lp's that is absolutely divine. Not the power and sweep of Klemperer, but almost as distinguished, high praise indeed.

I would bet the Beethoven is worth hearing. I remember another superb account from the Nonesuch days, Gunter Wand with the NDR.


Noyes