Posted Sat 21 June 2008 15:38 by pe zulu:

quote:

Dear George

I definitely agree with your words about the Klemperer 4 & 5 with the BPO, concerning the opulent and bass heavy string sound, so typical of the orchester in question. As if Karajans spirit was unavoidale. As if conducting the BPO first and foremost was a question of being able to transform the Karajan interpretation. I do not know why this is so. Maybe the reharsal time was too short. Contrary to this several other conductors have made recordings with the BPO in the same period even on DG, which do not make me think of Karajan.

From the Testament catalogue I have acquired the above mentioned 4&5 with BPO and the 1&8 with the Philharmonia. I even have to agree with your words (elsewhere) about the latter. Two lively and well integrated performances, not perfect in the strictest sense of the word, but much more exciting than the corresponding studio production.

And I am now considering the acquisition of the live 2&7 and the 4&5 as well as the 9 all with the Philharmonia of course. I understand, that the live 9 with the similar cast of singers as the studio production (1957) is preferable to the other one with a different cast. Or should one have both? As to 7 I think, it would be a hard job to match the studio mono with the Philharmonia.

Concerning the live Eroica the orchester is the Orchestra of the Royal Danish Opera, which is identical with the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra. This was at that time regarded to be the top rank orchester in Denmark. Next came the Danish State Radio Orchestra, which was trained by Nicolai Malko, and which played regularily with a host of prominent names. I think the performance will serve as an interesting supplementary listening, more satisfying than the BPO CDs, but it is (as far as I remember - just but a child) no match for the Philharmonia studio mono, which I knew at the time, I heard the live performance, which I think was in 1958, and definitely not earlier than autumn 1957.

The testament live Pastorale consist IIRC of a double CD set with reharsals included. I read about it some time ago, but now I can not find it on Testament´s home page. Where did it go?

ATB Poul

Dear Poul,

I think it is quite possible that the BPO simply did not like Klemperer. On the other hand the VPO were deeply impressed with him, and the VPO Beethoven Fifth with Klemperer is not to be missed in its power and vision, if it is rather slow! The orchestra bring out conductor’s usual clear balances and play with a strength that is completely different to the recording with the BPO. I suspect that the BPO were happier with the easier task of following Karajan's relatively clear beat compared to Klemperer's, which was definitely sketchy from the technical point of view on times.

On the Choral Symphony live recordings: I significantly prefer the 1961 performance, and I also prefer the solo team, particularly the tenor on the later recording. The performance has even more drive than the 1957 concert, and I have both. If I had the choice of buying just the one I would go for the later one, in spite of a mistake in the timpani part in the first movement. If anything the Choir is even better than the superlative effort in 1957. I significantly prefer the slow movement in '61 as well. The recording is mono and better balanced than the ‘57, which is [incredibly] in stereo.

It would be fairly miraculous if the Royal Chapel Orchestra actually surpassed the Mono EMI studio recording in the Eroica. That strikes me as almost a sort of ideal in the music, but I will probably buy the live Danish performance on Testament later ...

I will look later for the live Pastoral, but once again I have a real liking for the Vox recording of that. It was on Amazon about two weeks ago, so if I can find it again, I will post the link. If it [as I remember it] is with the BPO, I shall pass it by, as I doubt if there is a transformation in the BPO string sound from the coupling of Four and Five. It might be fascinating, but hardly likely to be more to my taste than the old Vox Vienna Symphony Orchestra studio set.

ATB from George

I can comment on two performances, those of the Beethoven 6th and Missa Solemnis on Vox.

One thing I find striking in Klemperer's performances is the truism, the better the work, the better K's performance of it. That is the highest compliment you can pay any performer. If a performance can rise to the quality of the individual work, no matter how lofty it's heights or how deep its depths, then that is truly something special. If I prefer Klemperer's recording of the Bach B minor Mass to the Missa Solemnis, it is because the Bach Mass is written for the voice and Beethoven's work is composed 'in spite of the voice.'

I think that, with certain works, a performance must be 'made'.. In such cases, merely presenting the work straight, in all it's glory, is not enough. I am still struck by the freshness and vivacity of Bernstein's Columbia Missa. He seems to be able to make the work sing and dance in a way that, to hear others do it, hardly seems likely. This may go down to the creative element. Bernstein was a very accomplished composer whereas Klemperer, by all accounts, was at best a creative mediocrity. Bernstein can see better what the composer meant and what he felt in his innermost depths. This is something that goes beyond training or technique.

That said, there are moments when Klemperer's lack of outer expressivity and emotion pay big dividends. Somehow, the bars leading up to the big violin solo in the Sanctus, by being played so plain and affectless, allow the entrance of the violin to have greater emotional impact. Klemperer's is the more devotional and traditional, middle European approach.

About the Vox 6th,... it is a unique performance. Most striking in it's total lack of Viennese Gemutlich. It is so strikingly plain that, at first, it requires a bit of adjustment from the familiar sounds of, say, Bruno Walter's humane, and more genial approach,.. it requires a kind of emotional re-orientation on the part of the listener trained on a more conventional approach. I suppose, that if I'd had Klemperer's version as my first exposure to the work, I would view the 6th as an altogether more interesting work. Rather, it has been reduced to sentimental cliches in the hands of more "natural"(ie emotionally flowing) approaches. Probably, under K, the work has a better balance between clarity, musicality and ultimately,.. spiritual satisfaction.



Noyes

Dear Noah,

It may be interesting to consider that Klemperer approached the Missa Solemnis as a work, "which takes no account of the possibilities of performance," as he so aptly put it. The tessitura of all the voices in the Choir is too high for for stretches, much too long, for it ever to be perfectly performed. Relatively the Mass in B Minor is much easier, though not easy for the Choir. Bach's instrumental writing is much more demanding on the instrumental performers, though ...

As a result Klemperer spent most of his career refusing to perform either work. His B Minor Mass recording from 1967 is one that was made during preparations for an RFH concert, which Klemperer explained was an experiment to see if he could convince himself of the work's performability! That was 37 years after his previous [complete] performance in Berlin in 1930.

Similarly he waited more than twenty years to make the Vox recording since his previous public concert of the Missa Solemnis. He was never convinced of the possibility of a perfect performance of the work ...

If remains a question of opinion whether Klemperer's considerable austerity in the work is a more constructive approach to what is definitely a rambling work that needs a firm hand on the tiller, if it is not to fall into an episodic mode. That is exactly why a reading like Bernstein’s fails completely for me, but Klemperer's view is without doubt completely single minded, and dedicated to the maximum of clarity, and makes no concession at all to any attempt to find the romantic aspect in it, or even beautify the power of it. But as you say there is beauty is Klemperer's reading, and it emerges as a direct consequence of Beethoven's writing rather than the attempt to make the powerfully trenchant more beautiful than I suspect Beethoven intended. It is an uncompromising work without question!

All the more so does the episodic beauty emerge in Klemperer's hands for the great contrasts that this austere approach brings out without applying anything at all to the music that is not explicitly stated in the score. It takes genius to make such a stylistically ascetic approach into something powerfully human in its musical outpouring.


Very much the same applies to the Pastoral, which often falls into the category of "pretty, nicey-nicey" music, without the obvious symphonic strength of the other symphonies. It is Klemperer's genius in this work to provide a literally unique spiritual conception it, so that it emerges as a powerful and fully symphonic work of terse power, in spite of its gentle aspect in the first three movements.

The charm as it exists in this Vox VSO recording is in the instrumental timbres rather than the sweetening of the music through tempo manipulations or smoothed over phrasing. In this way, I find the actually playing of the VSO is what makes this my favourite recording of the work with Klemperer, but Klemperer's unique approach makes his own reading [with any orchestra captured by the recording process] preferable for me to any other, so that this Vox recording occupies a very special place in my affections and is for me head and shoulders finer than any other performance I have encountered.

I believe it a performance to convert to loving the work those who find the work lacks power, architectural/emotional strength, tension, and drive. Apart from Erich Kleiber this is the only reading I find completely satisfying, though Boehm on DG with eh VPO is rather fine on a lower level of inspiration IMO of course!

Thanks for your splendid post!

George

Just ordered Symphonies, Four and Five with the Philharmonia in the BBC live recordings on Testament, and The Missa Solemnis in the same series live in 1963!

That [with the Annie Fischer Beethoven Sonata Cycle on Hungaraton] represents more than my monthly fun spending, but life is today, and not next year!

George

PS: Though I got the same coupling of Four and Five from BPO under Klemperer "live," I wish I had gone for the Philharmonia "live" recordings [all on Testamant], as I find the string and wind balances exemplary with the London based orchestra, but too bass-weighty in Berlin. I shall not be buying the others Testament offer in the series from the Berlin concerts.

The two Klemperer CDs came. Goodness we must be grateful to the BBC and the British Library that these documents of such performances are still are audible. And Testament for publishing them, especially considering how difficult are the times for classic recording sales.

The performances are among the most emotionally staggering Beethoven I have ever heard. I am tired, and cannot begin to do justice to what is contained tonight. The Missa has the cohesion one could only dream of ...

George

Broke up from work till Monday at teatime! Immediately I felt reasonable, and relaxed, and not the least wanting to sleep!

Perfect state for listening, and the two new live recordings with Klemperer leading the music of Beethoven had their due in terms of concentrated appreciation this evening.

The Disc of the Fourth and Fifth Symphony enters with the imposing chords that launch the Egmont Overture. This is very similar to the EMI recording which accompanies the Pastoral Symphony in the current Great Recordings of the Century issue, and has just the edge more drama and sense of timing and strangely better ensemble. This was one grand performance, and sets the scene for the Fourth Symphony, which often comes off as a sort Idyll, sweetly offending no one.

Klemperer brings this music to life is a way that underlines the music's drama, and terse symphonic argument that only serve to underline the sheer energy of the music. This is not to say that the introduction lacks mystery or the slow movement its repose, but the whole effect is one of strong contrasts utterly bound together in tight cohesion. Though the approach is similar to the studio recording for EMI made during preparations for this 1957 Beethoven Festival Concert, the effect strikes me as different. If the studio performance impresses as a very clear and architectural reading with less contrast, this one seems to probe the power of the music more than any performance I have yet encountered. The studio set is snguine and less compelling though still one of the great recordings of the symphony. The live performance is at an altogether higher level, if perhaps slightly less polished as a performance. That should worry no one!

Then comes the Fifth, which I naturally had high expectations of. Powerful and compressed music, in the hands of a master of drive, and momentum, and a long-term view that welds detail into the very structure of it. Yes, this a great performance, and one that builds in tension to the very end of the Finale, almost as if the music did not pause between the first three movements, but it does not surpass the unique 1955 mono EMI studio recording in any respect except better balancing of the winds and brass, where, as ever, Klemperer ensures every single note is clearly heard. But the studio set paradoxically carries even more momentum. The reverse of the usual situation.

Then I rested and set off on the Missa Solemnis!

Klemperer made two commercial recordings of this - firstly for Vox with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in 1951, and secondly for EMI in 1965 with the New Philharmonia.

Musically this 1963 concert has the trumps. It is not flawless and the great Philharmonia Chorus are both supple and glorious toned, but inevitably show some strain at Beethoven's unreasonable demands in writing far too much music in high tessitura. In the studio this could be taken with the strenuous parts separated by days, which has its advantages.

What you could not get in the studio is the magic that can sometimes happen in the concert setting. It is as if the whole performance is building towards the end. Well towards the last section, the Agnus Dei.

I have no idea quite why but this last section then reaps the power and strength built so monumentally in a style anyone familiar with either of Klemperer’s studio recordings will recognise. Almost completely devoid of any romantic expressivity at all - the opposite of Bernstein or Boehm in the music - and treats us to a Benediction in the quiet last bars. The tension is released in the most breath-takingly beautiful and poised revelation of music, which I would say was about the most profound music statement left in recordings from Klemperer in his whole career.

This is something every person who either loves or is curious about Beethoven’s music should listen too. I was not expecting this from knowing the studio recordings. But I doubt it could ever be achieved like that in the studio without sounding "arch."

Now the bad news. The Symphony disc, is well balanced and has the same sound qualities as the other BBC recordings in the series and these reflect the extremely dry acoustic of the Royal Festival Hall, and this means that the forte passages are hardly sweet as they would be in the studio, but somehow this suits the music and Klemperer's musical reading.

Sadly the Missa recording is only just slightly better than adequate. The very opening Kyrie orchestral chord brings feeling of foreboding with dull muffled sound, and it is a very good job that within seconds the tone of it grows a proper brightness! This is not nearly so fine as the two live recordings of the Choral Symphony in the series as sound, but the crucial details emerge well enough not to be lost, and the ear soon adjusts, so this is the price to pay for the majesty and mystery of the music making, brought out with such profound spirituality. In my view it is the performance of the three that will be my choice to play most often for its profundity, but the warning is there for those who cannot deal so well with old live radio-tape recording in less than ideal condition.

ATB from George

Dear Friends,

The Missa Solemnis recording is of devastating significance. Last evening I was much too constrained in my thoughts about it. Here is what I just wrote in [part of] an email about it. This much nearer indicating the performance's significance:

quote:

I am listening to a live recording of the Missa Solemnis this morning again. It is Klemperer in the RFH with his phenomenally honed Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus and really top soloists. The recording is definitely more primitive than you might hope for from the BBC in 1963, but the sweep of the music [and performance] is irresistible!

For once I have it turned up a bit, and the chance is a rare one. But music for a Choir of 200, an orchestra of perhaps 90 and very large organ part as well, cannot be replayed successfully at low levels.

[...].

Klemperer was known as a severe and ascetic musician whose concern was structure and the emotional strength in the music [and brought out by long term architectural means, rather than short term meddling with speeds or overly sweet phrasing], - he would not add sugar to the fruit to mask its subtle if occasionally sharp taste! There is plenty of wonder, mystery and downright human warmth in this, even though not one micron of quarter is given over to false emotion or romantic response! Where Beethoven intended soaring spiritual beauty this emerges all the more delineated for the trenchancy that surrounds it, being realised with terrifying power and directness.

This is probably the greatest single recording of Beethoven's music that I have, and the live setting, compared to Klemperer's two studio recordings allows for something that admits to human frailty and imperfection as well as a sense of utter dedication to striving for the kernel of the music. It seems that the greater the music, the greater the ability of Klemperer to bring out this strength and overwhelming power in the emotional message.

Sorry about that flight. Rarely can a newly released recording [even one of second rate technical quality] be so compelling."

KR, from George

Dear Friends,

Finally, and without further investigation, I shall post a possible top list of Beethoven Symphony Cycle from Otto Klemperer.

The reason for not simply accepting the very fine EMI stereo Cycle is that in each case of the individual symphonies, there is or even are finer recordings issued and easily available. I have avoided investigating the sort of issue as might be thought of as “collectable” from out of the way companies which may not be available in all territories or even easily available at all. These are mainstream issues, which are as easily obtained as the EMI stereo Cycle, though being individual issues the price is not in the budget range but rather the upper mid-price bracket.


1. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
2. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
3. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356774025
4. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1407
5. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356785120
6. Klemperer/Vienna Symphony Orchestra [Vox studio, early fifties] Information below.
7. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
8. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
9. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1961] SBT 1332

The performances have all been considered in the pages of this thread, and of course the three issues of the Missa Solemnis and certain other issues, such as the legendary Fidelio recording from the production at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, have also been considered.

Future investigations will take in the Third, Fourth, and fifth Piano Concerto concerts from 1957 with Claudio Arraw, which gained a legendary status before Testament finally issued the recordings. I would like to confirm that these are worthy of “legendary status.”

Of course the question will remain why any one nowadays would want to investigate recording, mostly just over half a century old, when there have been many remarkable Beethoven Symphony Cycles recorded since, often in very good recordings and splendid performances? The answer for me is clear, in that by about 1955, Klemperer had hardly had a stable base to work, and the kind of opportunities that Herbert von Karajan had with his work with the Philharmonia and Berlin Philharmonic for one by now often accepted as exemplary set of readings, available in I believe five different commercial sets.

Klemperer, for various reasons, not the least that it was almost too late for him as an old man, completed only one complete “official studio cycle,” the EMI set. Even these recordings represent his work at a time when his work in the studio, was arguably showing signs of declining physical powers, and often a rather safe approach to tempi. The contemporary concerts show a very different record of an artist who would not only take risks, but seemed to insisted on them in the name of bringing forward his driven, powerful, and often deeply expressive understanding of the music. The paradox, is that this vision was in so many ways one that prefigures the modern HIP movement which insists on often fast tempi [a Klemperer characteristics in concerts, but not so often in the studio], clear balancing of the winds and brass, which seem to have been crucial in the concert hall and the studio, and an avoidance of the kind of tempo manipulations that characterise the older “romantic” school of conductors, such as Wilhelm Furtwangler.

In many ways Klemperer was a very forward looking artist, whose individual rejection of the normal performing traditions [of his day] led him to produce performances that have not become historical curios, but ones that remain as relevant today as they were relevant and “revolutionary” at the time.

I sincerely hope that some here will see this list and perhaps investigate some or even all of them over time. Klemperer’s reputation has been somewhat dogged by the expectation of slow, even eccentric performances on records, and there is no denying that if the only reference were to be his late EMI studio recordings that might be the impression left. These live and slightly older studio recordings demonstrate why he was so lionised for his concerts not only in the 1950s, but through most of the 1960s as well.

I commend these recording, for anyone who loves the Symphonic Music of Beethoven, and also to those who have found the music is not always so easy. These are so honest and well presented as music making that they compel attention, admiration and even allow for a deepening of understanding of quite why Beethoven himself was a great and revolutionary composer in his day.

Sincerely from George

PS: I have missed out the contemporary Eroica performance Testament issued from the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra, on the strength of pe zulu’s assurance that is “but a child” compared to the famous 1955 EMI studio recording, and also omitted consideration of the Klemperer’s concert performances with the Berlin Philharmonic in the Symphonies 4, 5, 6, and 7. This is because the string sonority in Berlin is of that ultra-luxuriant and weighty style that Karajan brought to bear there, and which Klemperer seems to have been unable to change in the necessarily relatively short time given for rehearsals. With the Philharmonia, the orchestra naturally produced the kind of string balances that Klemperer was looking for and found in almost any orchestra other than the BPO.

PPS: The Vox recording of the Pastoral may be obtained from Amazon.com, as in the link in Rubio’s post on page five of this thread, about have way down.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-solemnis-Symphony...id=1213623775&sr=1-2

In this issue the Pastoral Symphony is coupled with the Fifth, and the Missa Solemnis.

Now the survey is complete, I am more than happy to try to clarify anything for those wondering where to start, or even what any of the performances are like. Of course an awful lot has been said on this already in the course of this thread, and it may prove an interesting read from end to end.

So any question?

All the best from George

No question... just a heartfelt thankyou.

I have had the EMI studio set for many years, and eventually supplemented it with other conductor's performances. But I have always returned to Klemperer, and am now inspired to explore the Testament releases.

As an aside... many years ago I was listening to Tchaikovsky 6th on the car radio. For some reason the performance really hooked me, and when the reception faded (on the Great Ocean Road west of Melbourne, Australia) I turned the car round and parked within the signal to hear the last two movements. After it finished, the announcer revealed it had been Klemperer...

I recently got hold of this now deleted performance of the Pathetique on CD having found it simply the most engaging performance from my days using LPs.

Klemperer was not just a Beethoveian. He was a master musician.

Sadly his reputation as one of the great Beethoven conductors has put his work in other respects into the shade!

George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Sadly his reputation as one of the great Beethoven conductors has put his work in other respects into the shade!

Perhaps a little like Jochum and Bruckner in this regard.


dn1 mentions the EMI studio set. I must say that I find the performances rather dull and turgid. Not a patch on the brilliance of the live Fidelio that George mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm curious to track down some of these live readings for comparison.


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

If you had access to the EMI studio Fidelio, and compared to the live one you do have, you would soon appreciate just why I consider these selected performances so very important, both in respect of realising Beethoven's music, and correcting some of the ideas that were brought about by Klemperer's performances in the studio, particularly the later ones.

The EMI stereo cycle is sterling rather than inspiring. That is the difference.

George

Dear George,

I did have the chance to listen to the studio Fidelio shortly after I purchased the Testament issue, and I am well aware of the difference. Indeed, I don't think I managed to finish it! That said, nothing can touch the Rattle/Berlin Fidelio which is truly remarkable - it remains beyond my comprehension how this great music can be rendered so dull.

However, the thing stopping me from rushing out and buying all of these is that I'm trying to make an impact on my to be listened to shelf which has grown to epic proportions. But in due course.....


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

It is good job that it is all a question of opinion, because I entirely disagree about the Berlin Rattle Fidelio, and am fascinated to read just what aspect of it you actually like. Some of the singing was fine enough, but there my engagement with it ended, I am sorry to say!

Not least is the overweighty Berlin Orchestral sound, which still seems to live in the silken suffocating world of Karajan on this showing!

To think that Rattle had made such nigh HIP performances at Glyndebourne a few years earlier, and from knowing one of the horn players in the Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment, it seems that Rattle at least brought a good deal of energy to it, which is interesting because the Berlin set at tempi not so different to Klemperer's set, but actually sound lethargic in comparison to the rhythmically sprung and very articulate version made with the Philharmonia [EMI studio], let alone the positively driven Covent Garden performance [BBC/Testament]!

Sorry I have to disagree about Rattle being a significant contributor to the Fidelio discography, or indeed the Klemperer studio set being "dull!"

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
It is god job that it is all a question of opinion, because I entirely disagree about the Berlin Rattle Fidelio, and am fascinated to read just what aspect of it you actually like. Some of the singing was fine enough, but there my engagement with it ended, I am sorry to say!

Dear George,

You completely misunderstand me! I do not like the Rattle at all. I am saying I have heard nothing that can touch it for sheer dullness! Klemperer's studio readings are lively in comparison and while the don't completely grab me, they weren't a struggle to get all the way through (as all of Rattle's Beethoven was - not simply the Fidelio). Apologies if I was unclear.

regards, Tam

Speaking of significant contributors to Fidelio, two are worth of note, in my view.

Mackerras gave a blistering account in two of a series of concerts celebrating his 80th birthday which opened the SCO's 2005 concert season. It was a stunning experience musically, not least the astonishing energy he was able to bring to the leonora III overture that was slotted in between the scenes in act two. Where he gets his energy from I don't know. Unfortunately his Telarc studio recording isn't quite so fine (not least as the SCO Chorus in concert was superior to the Festival Chorus on disc). The BBC did tape it, but I don't suppose it will ever make it to CD, more's the pity.

Colin Davis, whose Beethoven symphonies with the Dresden Staatskapelle I believe I've praised here before, has fairly recently done it with the LSO, and that too is very fine, rather more in the Klemperer mould.

Both sets have the virtue of Christine Brewer's superb Leonora.


regards, Tam

Dear Tam!

Complete misunderstanding! I must say my misunderstanding did perplex me!

Have you tackled the Furtwangler set yet? That has some very good points!

ATB from George

Dear George,

It is next on the pile, but I have just had my Furtwangler for the day in the form of another of your wonderful Salzburg recordings - the Bruckner 5 - to which I thought he provided a wonderful sense of structure.

regards, Tam

quote:

dn1 mentions the EMI studio set. I must say that I find the performances rather dull and turgid.

Tam,
I'm sure they are not ideal. Over the years I have heard other recording which have appealed. I return to them because whenever I upgrade my system, these recordings reveal new depths, whilst others are revealed as one-dimensional. Klemperer and Mravinsky have been the biggest benficiaries of the keel on my LP12 - with them, there is more to come, and with others I wonder why I spent my money! Norrington and Rattle in particular had a short shelf life.
Klemperer's 9th on the EMI box is a particular favourite - until I heard it, I didn't understand the music. That is the effect that this box set had on me - Klemperer made the music's profundity accessible. If other performmances can improve on this, great, but for me Klemperer has unlocked the understanding of much music, and for that I will be eternally grateful.