Dear Friends,

I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!

Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.

This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].

I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.

Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].

Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Dear Friends,

When Klemperer first made records for EMI in 1954, he had already made aquaintance with London audiences making music with the Philharmonia Orchestra, but as so often in in his difficult life politics stood in the way of getting an earlier, regular start in London.

His last home, would prove to be the one where he found an appropriate level of recognition. To his German people he was Jewish. To his Eastern European hosts he was politically suspect as Communism took over, though his politics were essentially socialist. On moving to the US he had a real problem as they suspected him of being a Comminist!

Only in liberal minded London did he finally find some peace. It was fortunately soon enough - during the fifties from when most of these new "live" releases come, he was surely the leading Beeethovenian in the world, following the retirement of Toscanini and deaths of Erich Kleiber, and Wihelm Furtwangler in 1954. Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.

I want to really try to get some people, who are either not old enough to remember the "great" Klemperer, or who have been pursuaded by legend and some rather less fine late recordings that Klemperer's greatness was something of a myth, to at least try out one or two of these. [His tempi in the fifties were anything but slow, to cover one almost superficial aspect - in fact they were frequently faster than any of his collegues]. I shall buy them all as I can.

These live performances catch the true grandeur of Klemperer's vision and the greatness of the performances that so often resulted when he conducted in the fifties through to the mid sixties.

The shame is that record companies wanted to always have the latest technolically advanced recording issued and carried on issuing new studio recordings when better ones existed from a few years before. Of course there are exeptions, like the collaboration with Barenboim in the Five Beethoven Piano Concertos, but there are things that might better have been re-issued in an earlier recording, and this has done immense harm in my view to Klemperer's posthumous reputation.

Klemperer at his greatest simply seems more expressive, more natural, more inevitable, and more animated than any of the great Beethovenians in the decade before him, and he has not been ecliped since. I believe that these recordings will contain some of the greatest Beethoven orchestral performances yet issued on records, going on the few that I have heard so far, and the contempoary linked studio recordings, which I have always admired. Amazing as it may sound now even the critics found near unanimity in recomending the Mono recordings of the Eroica, Fifth, and Seventh Symphonies done in the studio in 1954/5 as "first recomendations, in each case."

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.

A matter of opinion!

Where is Klemperers Britten? Schoenberg? Shostakovitch? Sibelius? Vaughn Williams?

Or Karajan's Elgar, Walton, etc ... Repertoire is as personal as the next aspect.

Interestly Klemperer was rather good at Sibelius, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakowich [in Leningrad before 1939] Weill, Hindemith ... well the list of 20th Century composers Klemperer championed goes on and on, and is rather broader than Karajan's. Even Furtwangler was braver than Karajan in this respect. The fact that many of these modern composers were not exactly a great economic proposition for recording in London in the 1950s will explain why Klemperer is nowadays thought of as almost exclusively a Beethoven Expert, based on the recordings that were made, rather than his actual repertoire. He referred to this "narrow myth" as "His Dog Collar!" Even now there are great recordings of Stravinsky and Tchaikowsky which sadly languish in the vaults because they do not, at first sight, look like they would be any good sales-wise for a modern CD re-issue.

Though I agree that some people would say Karajan was on occasion Klemperer's equal in some respects, I am still curious to find an example of a parallel recording where Karajan is conclusively more compelling than Klemperer.

In many ways I would say Karajan represents a safe choice, rather like a Toyota car - supremely reliable, but just a little faceless - and it certainly is not true that Klemperer is ever a safe choice! But certainly often a bracing one! I would never point up the late Klemperer recordings unless they have the same sort of qualities he was bringing out in the fifties. Some of these late efforts do, such as the EMI Missa Solemnis recording I mention in the first post here for example.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Though I agree that some people would say Karajan was on occasion Klemperer's equal in some respects, I am still curious to find an example of a parallel recording where Karajan is conclusively more compelling than Klemperer.

Considering the fact that Klemperer was 23 years older than Karajan, I’m not sure such a thing as a parallel recording exists. I suppose his 50’s cycle of Beethoven symphonies with the Philharmonia or the recordings done with the VPO in Vienna in ’46 are probably the closest.

Do you have either of these?

Dear Basil,

We had some of the Philharmonia/Karajan/Beethoven cycle in the school library, at which time I was getting my own first LPs. Later I had a Karajan issue of the immediate post 1945 recordings done in Vienna, on early eighties LP re-issues.

I did not still have them by the time I parted with 95% of my LPs in 1991. I found them dull, badly recorded [in the main far worse than EMI recordings from the thirties for some reason], and nothing like as compelling as Klemperer or Erich Kleiber in the same repertoire. Somehow the key nodal points in the Choral for example just never felt fully driven home with conviction for me. Loud, but not felt internally in a way. No I am not going to convince you like this!

It is all opinion, and I can no longer put two parallel - in terms of recording date is what I meant - records on to compare. My tastes have certainly evolved, but I would say they have evolved even further from the Karajan way, and even away from the excesses of Furtwangler as well.

Karajan is too calculated for me. Furtewangler, too wayward in his tempi changes... There seems an awe inspiring clarity, and almost terrifying momnetum in Klemperer's vision, as well as a touching glimse of beauty from time to time, which is all the more of a contrast given his frequent Toscanini-like energy, and seriousness in the bigger picture.

I am sure that we shall not agree on this, and I hope that you can accept my enthusiasm for the great master, Otto Klemperer, while I am quite prepared to applaud your taste as being different, in favour of the great master, Herbert von Karajan.

The reason I wanted to put this thread up is to persuade those who want something special and new to investigate in Beethoven's music, to have a lead to it. I am sure when Karajan is the subject of a good series of re-isses you will do the same for him, and rightly praise him!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik

Rather interesting thread. Some months ago I decided to reacquire the Beethoven/Klemperer Symphonies I used to own on vinyl. Until now I have got the Vox releases of the Symphonies no.s 5 and 6 with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from 1952 and the mono no.s 3,5 and 7 with the Philharmonia from 1955/6. Next step would be the complete stereo set from the late 1950es with the Philharmonia, but these Testament releases look rather tempting. Unfortunately they are perhaps a bit expensive, so I think I shall acquire the studio recordings and complement at time with some of the Testament recordings. Incidentally I remember the concert with the Royal Danish Chapel ca. 1958, which was broadcasted in the Danish radio live (Eroica and Brahms fourth), and impressive as it was, it is no match for the mono studio recording, so the live Erica is exclusively for Klemperer afficionados, I think.

I have heard (some years ago) a number of Karajans Philharmonia Beethoven Symphonies and would call them impeccable but rather smooth (read superficial), no match for Klemperers dramatic renderings.

Regards,

Dear Poul,

I think that I was going to probably avoid the Danish performance of the Eroica, though knowing someone who remembers it - I remember some relays on the radio which will one day reappear I am sure, like the Brahms First at the RFH under Karajan, which was his very last concert in UK: It started late! - makes me think I ought to get it, though the studio effort will take some matching!

It is interesting that the Pastoral does not appear among the live recordings - at least it has not yet been issued...

What is the Vox recording of the Pastoral like? I have the EMI stereo studio set, which is certainly not quite as per expectations, at least in the Peasants' Dance! I have the Vox set of the Fifth, which is bettered by the 1955 EMI recocrding on many levels, in my view.

If you are going for the stereo set on single discs, I think that the Seventh is not among the better efforts, whereas the early set is very fine, and the later Fifth is also less fine, but compelling in a strangely powerful and unique way.

But as for the rest of the stereo set: One, brilliant, Two, even more brilliant, Three, magesterial, but still compelling, Four, more or less perfection, Five, as above, Six, as above, Seven, not my ideal at all, Eight, the best I have ever come across, and Nine is only bettered by the live recordings in my view. The trouble for Klemperer is that his bipolar mental state meant that he was not always at his finest, and somehow I wish the Fifth had not been redone, and the Seventh not redone twice.

In a way Klemperer's later recordings can be like great but sometimes damaged paintings - at once both wonderous, and occasionally deeply frustrating, for wondering how fine they really might have been on a different day.

I really hope that these live concerts are all as illuminatng as the two live concerts of the Choral and the snippets I have listened to from the rest!

For me this is going to be a really exciting adventure. I will report back here with the results as I can afford the discs! One at a time I must say...

ATB from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik

The Klemperer Vienna no.6 is not that different from the Philharmonia version. The excentricities in the third movement are similar. And the Vienna Symphony Orchestra is not the Philharmonia. Never-the-less it is interesting because of its different orchestral sound, and because it tells how consistent Klemperers interpretations was with different orchestras.

I think, I shall go for the studio-stereo box in the first place, as it is relatively inexpensive, even if I don´t need the stereo no.3, 5 and 7 badly.

Regards,

Dear Poul,

I had a fair idea that the way the middle movement of the Pastoral under Klemperer was played was no accident, and so it does not surprise me to read that the approach is similar in the Vox recording done in Vienna.

Have you a link to where this [and the Vienna Vox recording of the Fifth] may be had? I rather like the reading in the Philharmonia, and don't find the emphasis on the slow "rural" Peasant dance disturbing in the least, but it certainly is not what you might "expect!"

I have the Vox record of Five, but it is certainly a "commercial pirate disc" done safely legally as the recording is now out of copyright. I also have the Vienna Vox recording of the Missa Solemnis, which is a great performance badly recorded! That is a proper Vox CD...

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik

Yes, here:
http://www.cd101.net/

It is about so called customer discs, made on request as CDRs by the owner of the copyrights. Generally high quality and midprice.
You will find a double CD , one of them containing the Symphonies 5 and 6, the other containing the Missa Solemnis.

Control your mail though.

Regards,

Dear Poul,

That looks like a very sensible way to produce low quantities of recording that for their obvious demand levels would never be likely to stay in the catalogue more than a month or two now, and yet allows access to things that would otherwise be completely unavailable.

A very good developement...

ATB from Fredrik

Fredrik,

I'm gonna order the Beethoven Symphonies for my dad, who's birthday is coming up. Looks promising.

It will be interesting to get your views on the Arrau collaboration. These were two unique but extremely different musical temperaments, artistically and personally. I had tickets to see Arrau in the mid 80's, but he canceled at the last minute. One of the great regrets of my concert going career.


Regards

BB

Dear BB,

One of the really great, if undemonstrative, concertos is Mozaer's B Flat, No 27. I have Klemperer with Clara Haskil [live concert with the Koln Orchestra on Music and Arts, USA] in this, and what a surprise, perhaps, unless you realise that he was one of the all time great accompanists.

Haskil is delicate, musically powerful, but not dynamically, and basically rather fast in tempi.

Guess what? Klemperer absolutely seconds the reading, almost as if no conductor were intervening between the orchestra and the soloist. His accompaniments for Barenboim, Oistack, Menuhin, and so on are all taylored to the soloists demands with gossamer touch. To find out how he got on with Arraw will be fascinating! I would guess Beethoven is the winner, once again.

Apparently he could not agree with Schnabel!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Before you all get too carried away........

Erich Kleiber was a greater conductor of the Beethoven symphonies than Otto Klemperer.

Klemperer's mono recordings of the Third, Fifth and Seventh are great recordings. But Erich Kleiber's recordings are, all being said, better.

Graham

My only experience of Klemperer in the symphonies comes from the EMI box of his recordings with the Philharmonia (along with the concertos with Barenboim mentioned above). I'm afraid that by and large I've found them a little disappointing and even turgid in places (the seventh in particular). Of course, the 3rd is very well served by Klemperer's approach (and yet not quite such grandeur as Jochum manages with the LSO - another very fine Beethoven conductor of a similar era).

Perhaps its the recording studio - since Klemperer's live Fidelio (albeit in mono) on Testament is much spryer and a fantastic set (which I can't really recommend highly enough), so I may have a look at one or two of these new issues.

That said, based on what I've heard so far I rather agree that Kleiber snr was a finer Beethoven interpreter - and there's a very good decca set on their original masters labels, which contains a number of his recordings of the symphonies (including an exception 6th with the Concertgebouw). Of course, there's also Kleiber jnr, whose Beethoven was also pretty exceptional.


regards, Tam

Tam, the EMI box of symphonies and piano concertos show a conductor well past his best.

But Klemperer was able to go on to great things in his last years: his Flying Dutchman is extraordinary!

The jury will always be out over Erich vs Carlos, but I just wanted to point out that there was a far greater Beethoven interpreter than Klemperer working in the studio in the early Fifties. Fredrik won't agree, of course!

Dear Graham, and Tam,

I am not really interested in comparisons of truly great music, or even truly great musicians playing it. It is fairly fruitless in my view. For me what is fascinating is to invetigate the work of the most satisfying artists in my favourite repertoire, and then spread out by finding unknown repertoire from an artists I have found satifying in music I know and love!

I have already pointed out that where there are alternative recordings from Klemperer, it may well to be the case that recordings done after the mid-sixties tend to be less fine than earlier ones. There are exceptions. We may not agree on just which ones however, so I am not going to join that debate. My view is already expressed above with regard to Beethoven's symphonies under Klemperer's lead, and I am pleased to see differing opinions without the need for me to disagree. It remains opinion - mine or someone else's - and all subjective.

However, when one is discussing the qualities of two artists of the calibre of Erich Kleiber and Otto Klemperer, the answer, really, is to investigate both! To say one is finer than the other is to walk on very thin ice. Rather like saying Leonardo is finer than Michelangelo! Or Mozart is greater than Bach. I know which ones I prefer, but certainly does not make my favourites the greater artists! I never compare the great! I am prepared to compare the good and the great on rare occasions, and when I do I try to explain the reasoning, though that is still somewhat subjective!

Kindest regards form Fredrik

Not closed! Good. Big post later! Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.

We'll see. My copy of HvK's 1947 Deutsches Requiem is awaiting me at the shop and it isn't proven that Klemperer/Schwarzkopf/Dieskau - my fave version by far - will come out as a winner (Hans Hotter !). Oh and it's one of my all time favourite works so I'm in for a few nice listening sessions. And if that weren't enough, I could even try out the Kempe package for sale at our local charity shop ?!