Thanks to both Fredrik and Tam.

It appears I will have to give a CD version of th 8th a go and see what happens. Have noted the recommended composers and shall seek them out for a listen at my local store.

And I agree Fredrik I had no idea of the interpretation but the pure feeling of the whole thing made that of no consequence to me. Liked the lampost story - could completely relate to it.

Nice one gentlemen.

Cheers

Norman

It's a good point Fredrik makes about interpretation. Often, though by no means always, I find it very difficult to describe what it was that made a live concert quite so magical. It's much easier when they're less good.


regards, Tam

gentlemen,

i was rather pleased to note norman's experience, as i have had similar episodes after attending concerts of wagner, mahler, beethoven, and bruckner. unfortunately, good seats are required, too -- and none of these pieces will produce this magic on anything but top-notch playback systems that do bass right. this is a completely different issue than enjoying music, which can be done on a mono table radio or ipod. it involves a visceral effect pounded into the heart by the majesty of the full-volume romantic orchestra, with its tympanis, multiple double-basses, and horn sections. there is nothing else quite like it. as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."

artie

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."

artie

He certainly does! Where does one find such babes?!

The 8th certainly inspires awe, with its mountainous 1st movement with that pulverising coda, the bucolic - to simplify matters! - 2nd movement, an adagio that I won't even try to describe, except to say it's probably the greatest slow movement after that of Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata (...okay, and maybe after the 'dankgesang' too, but you get the picture?!), and its awesome and bewildering finale. The 8th is the colossus!

I remember a concert Gunther Wand gave in Edinburgh with his NDR orchestra, I think in the late '90s. It was a packed festival audience, the sole work on the programme the 8th. The effect from the moment he creaked painfully onto the stage was electric, and once he lifted his baton and the music started it was like he'd been plugged in! I don't think I've ever seen an audience so affected by a concert. Afterwards, dazed and awed, they just sort of shuffled out of Usher Hall looking slightly lost!

Back 'on-topic', as it were, Wand's recording (live, I think) of the 8th doesn't even come close to capturing the live event, and I'm not the only person to have noticed this. The finest 8th on record by 100,000,000,000 miles is Karajan's with the Vienna Philharmonic - a recording so good it'd still be worth having if it was the price of a family saloon! Generally, I'm as happy if not happier to listen to recordings, especially since it's hard to find a concert anywhere in the country worth turning out for; but just occasionally the concert hall does what cannot be done by any other means; what, indeed, it OUGHT to do on a regular basis, but that's another matter! Like most other things I could mention, it is in a parlous state of decline, and serious and effective classical music is now the preserve of the compact disc.

EW

Agreed completely. Is the Bruckner Eighth done with the VPO on DG under Karajan his greatest reording, and quite possibly the most involving recording of the work on records? I think so, and I am no particualr fan of HvK! It is a regret for me that no recording of Bruckner is to be had from Sir Adrian Boult, where the legend has it that he fully understood the needs of the music, and regularly turned out wonderful performances in his BBC SO days. Tortelier made some wise critical observations on Boult's way with the Austro-German Romantics, but he was coming from a performer's standpoint, rather than the angle of media promotion, and hype is more important these days than musical talent, with disasterous results in the modern concert hall. [We do have Boult's recordings of Brahms, Schubert and Schumann as well as some Mahler to show the accuracy of Tortelier's remarks!]. Of course that was at a time when making complete recordings of Bruckner symphonies was a big rarity! What a loss that not one seems to exist from Boult. There was one disaster in the studio, however, when the doyen of English conductors had just been told that his retirement from the BBC would be "enforced" at the standard age of sixty - "sacked" as Boult put it: He slammed through Bruckner's Seventh Symphony in forty minutes leaving twenty five minutes in the schedule to fill, improntu! This seems to have been the sole time he lost his temper and professionalism in the BBC studio! A recording of that would indeed be a fascinating if terrifying ducument. One player said that it was completely terrible as there was no chance that even the notes could be played properly, and all music was extinguished...

Tam sums up many of the great Brucknerian conductors of a previous era, but Gunther Wand was the last link to a completely lost sensitivity in this music in my view. The decline is inexorable, sadly. To his list might reasonably be added the readings of Bruno Walter, and also Otto Klemperer, whose recording of Number Six is about as fine as it gets.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Do you guys mean the 8th HvK he made at the end of his life ? That surprises me, as much his output of that time isn't remembered for its quality.

Very late recording, yes. It is something I never bought, but it was broadcast on BBC Radio Three at the time, and it really took my fancy. It covered two CDs, being just a few seconds longer than they could fit onto one disc in those days, which made it a very expensive issue at the time. I subsequently got Furtwangler's VPO set done in 1944, which I no longer have. I might consider the Karajan set now, even given my lack of enthusiasm for his work in the general. I have no recording of the work at present.

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Cheese:
Do you guys mean the 8th HvK he made at the end of his life ? That surprises me, as much his output of that time isn't remembered for its quality.

It depends who you ask!

I think there was - and still to some extent is - a lot of rather crude anti-Karajan sentiment deriving from (often misguided) misgivings about his political persuasions and the fact that, towards the end, people were just sick of the sight of him. (The egotistical old Nazi varmint!) I think more great conductors site Karajan as their No 1 conductor than any other - even Toscanini was impressed!

His recorded oeuvre is vast, and it isn't all great; but most of it is at least excellent; in some key repertoire - e.g. Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Strauss, Tchaikovsky (if you're that way inclined!) - he is unlikely to be surpassed. The last two Bruckner recordings with the Vienna Phil, and a recording of the Missa solemnis from (I think) 1985, will silence his critics. I might add the famous live Mahler 9 too. Oh and the Alpensifonie. Oh and Parsifal, Meistersinger, Heldenleben, the early sixties Brahms and Beethoven... it starts to sound like the "what have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch, doesn't it? "Yeah, well, apart from all the peerless recordings of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Mahler and Debussy, WHAT HAS Karajan ever done for us?!"

Sibelius?



EW

... oh yes, and Schumann too!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."

artie

He certainly does! Where does one find such babes?!

EW

ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??

quote:

anti-Karajan sentiment deriving from (often misguided) misgivings about his political persuasions

I couldn't care less, also because I come from Switzy which didn't behave any better during the war so basically I'd best shut up. And if Heinrich Himmler had been a great conductor he would still be a great conductor, period. No need to mix things up.

quote:

His recorded oeuvre is vast, and it isn't all great; but most of it is at least excellent; in some key repertoire - e.g. Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Strauss, Tchaikovsky [etc., etc., etc.]

Yeah sure but I meant the recordings he made in the 80s in particular. Being a lifelong fan of his '77 LvB symphonies, I was particularly disappointed with his '83 digital set, which was apparently only made for the digiheads of the day. The lack of preparation was obvious, and it didn't surprise me when, some ten years later, I heard an interview of a BPO musician saying that during the 80's HvK had fallen into a recording frenzy and that several discs were recorded after very little preparation, if at all. The BPO are very professional musicians but still !

So this Bruckner 8th looks very interesting to me as I kind of 'got' Bruckner recently, I shall add it to the wish list of my music shoppe.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the digital LvB set, it's just not as good as the earlier ones. Some very fine HvK recordings indeed date from this era, however. As with anyone who recorded so much, it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff!

quote:

And if Heinrich Himmler had been a great conductor he would still be a great conductor, period. No need to mix things up.

I quite agree!

Regarding the Vienna 8th - go for it!!!!

EW

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??

Not yet, but perhaps I should found such a service - I've been looking for a change of career!

Fredrik and Tam and one and all,

decided to go out and buy a CD version of Bruckners 8th after my ruminations earlier in this post. Wound up being Celibidache with the Munich Philharmonia. Understand he is a bit of a controversial figure in amongst all of this. But after a lengthy session and discussion at my CD shop opted for his offering. Really liked the way he manages to clearly articulate the layers simultaneouly (someone mentioned harmonics to me). Anyway did it manage to give me anything approaching "the buzz" I got from hearing it live?

Well ...... actually yes. I found it was nothing like as dramatic an effect but none the less I have played it right through a couple of times and the house has to remain in silence for some time after it because nothing can be put on the player straight after it as it would be pointless and not required. It leaves me in quite a contemplative and satisfied state.

So owning a CD copy turned out to be very worthwhile. My earlier question is now answered. And whatever the fuss is about the aparently contentious efforts on Bruckner by Celibidache I think it has tremendous impact. Even the notorious Celibidache slow movement. In fact I found that is where the layers of the music were so beautifully articulated. But one mans meat ............

Anyway one and all this post helped me get over a hang up and thats all to the good. So thanks.

And I will be investigating some of the other recommended performances hereafter.

Cheers

Norman

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??

Not yet, but perhaps I should found such a service - I've been looking for a change of career!

ew - as you state in your post above, "go for it." and isn't there some sort of polling feature on this forum? perhaps adam would be interested in assisting you in getting this off the ground (and there is a goodly supply of wenches in rural france, just dying to hear rattle or the lso, is there not? perhaps a package to the edinburgh festival. lots of possibilities ...). fid.

Was away last weekend (for some non-Bruckner concerts and to see family down south) and am only just catching up.

Wand is missing from my list as I hadn't yet got round to exploring his recordings (and unlike my brother, who heard a number of his Edinburgh concerts, possibly the one EW mentions, and regards his readings very highly) or heard him live. However, browsing in HMV in Oxford Street, I came across his Kolner cycle for just £30 (about a third of what it normally goes for). I've only listened to the first all the way through, though the second is spinning now, but that was very fine and rather refreshingly different from many of the other interpreters I have on disc. HMV also had the EMI Celibidache, but at £125, that wasn't going to happen. I'd agree that Walter was also a fine Brucknerian (and his late Columbia records are very well worth seeking out).

I haven't got round to exploring Karajan in this repertoire either (though, again, I've heard and read many fine things). I've never been a big fan of his, but it has absolutely nothing to do with any political issues. It's to do with the fact that too often I find his recordings over-regimented and staid (I would certainly argue this is true of his Heldenleben, his Planets and his 1960s Berlin Beethoven). However, I have started to come round to him a little of late with a rather fine couple of discs of Sibelius (after Basil's recommendation), and I'll doubtless get to the Vienna 8th in due course.

I think some the antipathy also comes from his constant rerecording (some might say cashing in) or repertoire. I think Graham here once said that he would have been held in higher regard if he'd stopped recording in the 70s. Given what is said about some of his late work, I'm not sure that's entirely true, but I think he would have been wise to record less.


Norman, glad you've got a CD you enjoy out of all this! Further recommendations, would probably include Jochum in the 6th, Giulini's live BBC Legends 7th, any Furtwangler (if you can put up with poor sound) and, similarly Knappertsbusch (especially in 3, 4 and 8). I know Fredrik won't like this suggestion, but Jochum's Dresden recordings are available as an extremely cheap set (and are all very fine), you could always pick those up and use it as a guide to which symphonies you want to explore in more depth.

regards, Tam

If I were stareting out I ewould put the dresfden set under Jochum as the starting point, with the priviso that it would be a good idea to add...

Klemperer in the Sixth, Bruno Walter in the Ninth, Karajan in the Eight, Furtwangler [perhaps] or possibly finer Knapertdsbusch [live 1949 at Salzburg with VPO on M&A, USA] in the Seventh, Bohm in the Fourth, and so on. But Jochum is very central, not slow and though not entirely as successful as the best in individual symphonies, then never a disappointment. In fact I prefer Jochum's BPO recording of Four to the Dresden redording, but as a complete and very inexpensive set, then the Jochum EMI Dresden set is entirely recomendable in my view...

For all that I don't like, and would only rarely buy an integral cycle of orchestral symphonic or concertante music...

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
If I were starting out I would put the Dresden set under Jochum as the starting point, with the priviso that it would be a good idea to add...

Klemperer in the Sixth, Bruno Walter in the Ninth, Karajan in the Eight, Furtwangler [perhaps] or possibly finer Knapertdsbusch [live 1949 at Salzburg with VPO on M&A, USA] in the Seventh, Bohm in the Fourth, and so on. But Jochum is very central, not slow and though not entirely as successful as the best in individual symphonies, then never a disappointment. In fact I prefer Jochum's BPO recording of Four to the Dresden redording, but as a complete and very inexpensive set, then the Jochum EMI Dresden set is entirely recomendable in my view...

For all that I don't like, and would only rarely buy an integral cycle of orchestral symphonic or concertante music...

ATB from Fredrik

Apologies for the unusually high typo-count in the original...

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
If I were stareting out I ewould put the dresfden set under Jochum as the starting point

Normally I'd agree - it's excellent and very cheap - but Amazon are selling Karajan's BPO set for £43.97 at the moment (it used to be about £90), and at that price it's worth the extra (I've got both sets).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-An...d=1183210616&sr=1-24

Karajan's is comfortably the best complete set and at that price it's a "no-brainer", in forum-speak!!

EW

Dear EW,

This is a bit like cards. I put down the King Of Hearts down, and then you put down the Ace Of Spades! I think you may well be right on this!!! Fredrik