quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Fredrik

Which Kleiber? I seem to recall that you prefer Erich to Carlos: other way round for me!
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Both, really, but there is more to listen to from old Erich.
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Just imagine what might have been if Carlos K hadn't turned down the conductorship of the BPO after HvK died.
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I think it would have been grand, but I think Abbado was rather special too. I found the news of Rattle as replacement VERY surprising.
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Have you bought those speakers yet?
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Patience! There is a good reason to say it will be in the Autumn, as I know the very speakers I want...
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Graham

Dear Graham,

Sorry about the slack way of answering! Fredik

Out of interest then, who would they have had in place of Rattle. As far as I can remember only Barenboim was really in the frame (and I'm rather glad he didn't get it since he might not have ended up doing the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra which is very special indeed). I suppose Jansons or Haitink would have been nice to see there, though the former is doing very good things with the RCO so......

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

Personally I think that Jansons would have been a natural choice and he is a great musician with the necessary bredth of repertoire to make a fine job of the orchestra's core work, as well as introducing new ideas. Unfortunately Rattle is hopeless at Beethoven and so the whole mission seems holed below the waterline in my view!

Fredrik

I agree Jansons would have been good (though wasn't he having health problems at the time), still, I'm also very glad he's got the Concertgebouw so.... (I wish they'd get them to the Edinburgh festival.)

Also, I'm not sure he's that much for 'new' music, then again, for the Berlin job ability with Beethoven probably counts more and here you're absolutely right about Rattle. His set of symphonies was the only one I've been so unengaged by that I've sold it on. I recently inherited his Fidelio (which I recall being slated) so that too will be an interesting listen.

regards, Tam

Poor Jansons had a heart attack, but he seems to be better than ever since! I would think that Beethoven is pretty much what the BPO are famous for, and rightly. Years ago I attended a performance of the Choral under Jansons in the Festival Hall with the Philharmonia (lucky to get a ticket!), and it was one of the best concerts I have ever been to, so I guess maybe Jasons would have been just as wonderful in Berlin.

I also used to know some players from the BBC Welsh SO (sorry National Orch of Wales now I think) and Janson was a favourite guest there for many years. He has the ability to convince and motivate players, and that is important. Rattle (and again I still know some of the CBSO members, who played under him) certainly was not well liked or even well regarded as a musician, though as a disciplinarian he was successful of course.

Sorry for these fairly negative reactions to Rattle, but they are not made up, Fredrik

Fredrik,

Fair enough, though I do know at least one musician who speaks pretty highly of Rattle.

Out of curiosity, how is Oramo regarded? I was very impressed when I saw him with the CBSO last year (as was I when I saw the them under Ades at Aldeburgh).

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

He seems to have made a big impression on the band, and in a quieter way is carying things forward!

Personality and musical authority are something that seems to elude many music critics, and a large part of the audience, but I think it is rather important, if the result is to approach the best possible. Toscanini terrified his orchestra in terrific (almost whip-crack) playing, and Furtwangler or Walter cajoled them into doing there very best. It is possible to believe that this makes no difference at the audience end, but it does, and sometimes at the very basic level of a suitable and beautifully matched sonority. In 1934 the BBCSO made a recoding of the Brahms Fourth with Walter, which was for years a mainstay of HMV's catalogue. In 1935 (or'36?) Toscanini recorded it with them again. This [HMV] recording sounds much thinner and edgier, but this is simply down to the unsettled nature of the players under such a martinet. The recording system was the same. It is often said that there are almost no really fine recordings (from the view-point of sonority) of Toscanini. I wonder if they are actually rather faithful and if the performed sound was edgy and harsh given his way with his players. After all Walter seems always to have achieved splendid sounding performances. Rattle equally gets a tough hard sound from his band, whereas Oramo seems to draw something much sweeter and untimately more variageted and tuned to the musical needs of the music - what Furtwangler called 'precission of sonority.'

Anyway, such ramblings just show that I have different priorities to the musical money machine!

All the best from Fredrik

The only Toscanini recordings I have are his 50s Beethoven, and I don't much care for the sound (for exactly the reason you suggest). That said, interpretively I rather enjoy them, but I also enjoy Furtwangler's Beethoven very much too.

Interestingly, I was at a concert about six months ago (Ades and the Northern Sinfonia playing among other things, Beethoven 4), I was with an uncle of mine who used to play the oboe professionally and he remarked to me, after Ades motioned to the orchestra to get up and take the applause, and they stayed seated, that they only do that if they really like the conductor. I shall be watching the BPO's behaviour closely when the come to Edinburgh this summer

regards, Tam

Dear tam,

I know that in Hifi terms the aim of producing a beautifully rounded sound would be regarded with a certain disdain by Naimistas, but as I am sure you know I used gut strings on my basses for exactly those reasons! The technique needs to be much more subtle and refined, but the results are worth the extra effort. It is interesting to note how Furtwangler, especially, changes the tone of his orchestral sonority within a piece to project differing elements as the music requires it for correct expressivity. In this way he is vastly the more impressive and imaginative artist compared to Toscanini, but certainly there is visceral excitement (in my opinion to excess) in Toscanini's way, but surely this element is just as apparent in Furtwangler's work, but only when he feels this is essentially a major part of the expressive needs of the music he is reading. Strangle perhaps, Sir Adrian Boult is possesed of just the same imaginative response, but he is far too unrecognised for any critic to venture the opinion of him being at least Furtwangler's equal in Brahm or even dare I say it Beethoven!

But as I know it I can assiduously find the rare nuggets of things I know might potentially be (and very often are) extra-ordinarily wonderful musically rather than following the same herd that lionised Rattle in Birmingham, for, in my opinion, being no more than a splendid band-master!

People will start to hate me if I carry on like that! Fredrik

I thing that some naimistas can sometimes get a little too sneering of anything that sounds 'round-earth', however, one of the reasons I ended up with my B&W speakers is because I got a sound much more like what I get in the concert hall as opposed to what the Allaes did for me (which gave more more of a 'Toscanini' sound).

I hate to confess that I don't have a single recording by Boult, perhaps you could suggest a place to start...

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

Boult is going through a bad patch with almost everything except his VW and Elgar deleted, but now having a PC I could make you some discs as copies, the more so as the best of it is out of copyright now! But we have to exchange emails and I am loath to post my address here for long. If you reply to this I will put it up for a few minutes and then you can catch it before I delete it.

Fredrik

I recently passed up his VW and went for the Haitink instead (both sets were on sale for the same price and I plumped for Haitink since I already knew and had enjoyed his 8 and 9).

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

Address noted so you can delete it if you want.

I'll send you an email tomorrow after work of thing I have that are sooo rare from Boult, but not till after 11 pm as I work wretched hours! Fredrik

TAM PS: Don't miss Boult's VW. It is rather special actually, and everyone seems to pass him over. The BBC are gradually releasing concert recordings and he was often (very often) deeply compelling in concert, even more than in the studio, so I would say that at budget prices any of it is worth the risk. He had a HUGE repertoire and was actually at his best in the German and french repertoires! His English studio records (at least the later elgar recordings) could occasionally seem rather straight laced. I'll tell you more in the email! Fred

Thanks Fredrik, I await your e-mail with interest.

regards, Tam

In light of this thread about the Schubert C Major, I just listened again to Gunter Wand's 1995 live recording with the Berlin Philharmonic. Absolutely wonderful. He makes a few cuts most modern conductors do not, but that seems to me to tighten up this sprawling masterpiece. I think the older generation of conductors, like Furtwangler, Krips and Wand, had the real measure of this piece. Fabulous sound too, especially in the remastered recording on the RCA Essential Recordings series.

I listened to the symphony one evening a few years ago with the BBCSO under Wand, and indeed this RCA set should be very fine indeed if it matches that performance.

Fredrik

Dear Tam,

If you found that live Prom performance of it under Boult [onn BBC CD], please get it. It will not disappoint! It shows a natural developement form the 19333 BBC performance. Fredrik

Call me Mr Predictable, but I just can't get past my trusty Bohm with the BPO; it sounds a bit close for comfort by today's standards, but to my ears it's still the best played, most deeply felt, most well grasped and thought-out 9th of all time. I think it's available at budget price too.

EW

Dear Ew,

I know it. It is not the only way.
Boult has a unique insight, if never adequately commercially recorded! Fred