Hi guys,

Now that I have sampled some of the well known conductors and their interpretations of Beethoven, that include Furwangler, Karajan, Klemperer and Haitink I have decided that the Furtwangler 9th has had the most impact on me closely followed by Haitink and the LSO's rendition of the 5th and 1st. I am talking about the 1951 concert recorded at the Bayreuth Festival. I now thought I would like to hear the other symphonies recorded by Furtwangler and had a look at Amazon to see an EMI box set.

Now to the experienced classic bods out there has there been many editions of a Furtwangler complete symphony cycle? and if there has I would like advice on a good one to look out for before I shell out for the first one I see.


Also this recording of the 9th seems to court a bit of controversy and it seems to stem from the fact that some find it a magical and emotionally impactful performance to others who find it technically (playing and recording) flawed. I think you'll gather which camp I'm in and ironically that seems to be a great analogy of the HiFI world.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

I have had great problems with Furtwangler’s strange relationship with the Nazi Government and no longer have any of his recordings as a sort of personal stand against the popularity of man who was no better or worse than many around him at the time, except that he was in the perfect position to take a stand against Nazi Policy on Artistic Matters and the "Jewish Question."

On the other hand from the purely musical standpoint he was a capable and imaginative artist, whose work you either admire or dislike intensely.

Here is a list of Beethoven Symphony Recordings that I had about two years ago, and they reflect the fact that as a musician I admired his work alongside others like Klemperer, Bruno Walter and Erich Kleiber.

Every recording listed below offers something significant in the music, by Furtwangler or not.

Symphony No 1 in C
- BPO, Furtwangler, live, 1954 on Tahra
- VPO, Furtwangler, live, 1952 on Tahra
- VPO, Furtwangler, HMV Studio, 1952 on EMI

Symphony No 2
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI studio, 1957

Eroica symphony No 3, in E Flat
- VPO, Furtwangler, live in 1944, on Tahra
- VPO, Erich Kleiber, Decca Studio in 1954?
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI Studio, 1955 recording.
- BPO, Furtwangler in 1950, and in 1952 on Tahra

Fourth Symphony in B Flat
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI Studio in 1957
- VPO, Furtwangler, live in Munich in 1952 on Music and Arts
- VPO, Furtwangler, HMV Studio in 1952 on EMI

Fifth Symphony in C Minor
- BPO, Furtwangler live in 1943, and in 1954 (also live in Paris in 1954). Both on Tahra
- Concertgebeow, Erich Kleiber, Decca studio in 1954?
- Philharmonia, Klemperer EMI Studio, 1955
- VPO, Klemperer live in 1968 or 69.

Pastoral Symphony No 6 in F
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI Studio in 1957
- Concertgebeouw, Erich Kleiber, Decca Studio in 1954
- BPO, Furtwangler, live in 1944, and 1954 on Tahra

Seventh Symphony in A
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI Studio in 1955
- BPO, Furtwangler, live in 1943 and in 1953 DG and Tahra
- VPO, Furtwangler, HMV Studio, 1950 on EMI
- VPO, Furtwangler, live at Salzburg in 1954 on Orfeo
- Stockholm Phil, Furtwangler, live in 1948 on Music and Arts

Eighth Symphony in F
- BPO, Furtwangler, live in 1953 on DG
- VPO, Furtwangler, live at Salzburg in 1954 on Orfeo
- Stockholm Phil, Furtwangler, live in 1948 on Music and Arts or EMI

Choral Symphony No 9
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, live in 1957 and 1961 on Testament. [These are far better than anything by Furtwangler in my view].
- Philharmonia, Klemperer, EMI Studio, 1957.
- Philharmonia, Furtwangler, live at Lucerne in 1954 on Tahra
- Stockholm Forenings Orkester, Furtwangler live in 1943. [deleted now]
- VPO, Furtwangler, live in 1953 on DG
- BPO, Furtwangler, live in London in 1937. On HMV/EMI LP

These are a distillation, and not a random pluck.


For the real set of Beethoven by one conductor look at this thread from Jeremy B, where I post my current favourite set. But also there are some fascinating and grand alternative lists as well, in my view.

George

Note that I think there are much finer recordings from Furtwangler of the Choral - in fact there is not one which is worse on any level at all, but it was issued as the only taping EMI had control over at the time, and was rushed out when Furtwangler died as there was no longer a chance to make a respectable effort in the studio - than the Beyreuth recording, which is riddled with poor playing, terrible internal balances in the orchestra, a rotten choir who are slack and over weight, all compounded in a breath0takingly bad recording. Even the old 1937 Mayday Concert given in the Queen's Hall in London and caught on the fly on HMV 78s is preferable as a recording, and the performance is quite grand musically.

Thanks George,

I'll have to read up on Furtwanglers relationship with the Nazi's sounds interesting, being who he was at that time must have been difficult. I will keep your suggestions in mind if a box set is not deemed a good purchase I'll look for the singular releases.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

As far as I know the only boxed set was issued by HMV/EMI on LP and later CD, which contains VPO Studio recordings of 1, not 2, but 3 to 7.

The Second was a VPO BBC TV broadcast from the RAH in 1948, and was easily the worst recording I have ever heard, and the Eighth was the Stockholm account mentioned above from 1948. The Choral is that ill-fated set from Beyreuth ...

Orfeo have found out WF's very last VPO concert of 8 and 7 in that order at Salzburg in August 1954, and this is superb in every way as playing, conducting and recording.

ATB from George

Dear Dean,

I have a rather pro-Furtwangler book, called "The Devil's Music Master," which makes about as strong case for his conduct as could be done, but unfortunately relying on Nazi witnesses such Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and many less famous fellow travellers, as well as Bona Fide people like Menuhin.

By Sam Shirakawa, and published by Oxford University Press. Your's if you want it, and if so just send me an email. [address in profile].

ATB from George

PS: I think Shirakawa rather liked the Beyreuth Choral set!

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Dean,

As far as I know the only boxed set was issued by HMV/EMI on LP and later CD, which contains VPO Studio recordings of 1, not 2, but 3 to 7.

The Second was a VPO BBC TV broadcast from the RAH in 1948, and was easily the worst recording I have ever heard, and the Eighth was the Stockholm account mentioned above from 1948. The Choral is that ill-fated set from Beyreuth ...

Orfeo have found out WF's very last VPO concert of 8 and 7 in that order at Salzburg in August 1954, and this is superb in every way as playing, conducting and recording.

ATB from George

George,


This one is 1 to 9 on EMI

Furtwangler



Dean..

Dear Dean,

That's the set. I had the LPs! And you know what I think of LPs!

And some of the CD issues, but I never got round to getting them all.

The weak link is the Second as the recording is not [to say the least] good, but they make a nice set. If you enjoy them, then the single issues pointed above are finer still ..

Have fun with this! Do you want the Furtwangler Biography I mentioned above? It is a starting point to examine the man's life, and his significance as a figure both musical and political, through Germany's most difficult times.

Anyway have fun with this. I gave my remaining Furtwangler CDs away a couple of months ago, so unfortunately I cannot give you the recordings mentioned by now!

ATB from George

George,


I would like to read the book will we have to work something out. So you are saying its probably better to get the individual titles rather than that box set then?



Dean..

The EMI set is so inexpensive, I would start with it. The individual discs mentioned are mostly mid to premium priced issues, so start on the EMI collection, and "work out from there" would be my advice, because you may find that the collection gives you all you need or want from Furtwangler in the repertoire, and you may find yourself drawn to other great Beethovenians. Not telling you what to do, but trying to make a sane suggestion! The isolated issues can require patience to get as well ...

The book is your's to keep. Just email me and I will parcel it up and post.

ATB from George

PS: Do get the Lucerne Philharmonia Choral recording from 1954 on Tahra. It is less tense than the EMI set, but soooooo much more in tune with the music, and performaed by an orchestra that had the right to claim to being among the very best anywhere! It also happens to be just about the best recording [technically] that I have yet heard in the music [Swiss Radio taping] and is so clear [yet spacious] that not one single detail is left in the shade. The musical balance is exemplary.

I wouldn't add a huge amount, except to say that the EMI box of (mainly) Vienna recordings is somewhat disappointing. The Bayreuth 9th is the cream of the crop, but you already have that. The 2nd and 8th are good performances but poor sound.

There is a general rule for Furtwangler, that the live recordings are preferable musically to those made in the studio (though there are exceptions such as the Tristan und Isolde, I don't think that you should buy that just yet).

The live 1944 Eroica is a quite extraordinary performance, George hasn't mentioned another Vienna performance from 1950 and the Salzburg festival which is also good.

I would actually suggest this as your next purchase. Dirt cheap if you use the marketplace. It gives you live recordings of the 4th, 5th and 7th symphonies (in remarkably good sound for the early 40s, though by no means great), the Coriolan overture as well as the most moving performance of the violin concerto I have ever heard. You also get some other bonuses such as a wonderful Mozart 39th symphony and a Schubert 9th which is quite thrilling. The only possible reservation about this set is that it was recorded in Berlin during the Nazi era and some people do not like listening to them in light of this.

I think you had another thread about Beethoven not too long ago and I suggested, and will again, the extraordinary Donald Runnicles/Atlanta Symphony Orchestra reading of the 9th. I would also suggest picking up one of the Charles Mackerras's two cycles. The EMI one can be had for is cheaper and slightly better recorded, the SCO one more expensive, more thrilling but suffers from poor recording quality - the BBC have forgotten how to do this.


regards, Tam

Thanks Tam,


I completely forgot about the other thread, duh! sorry Tam I'll have another look at it and will investigate yours and George's suggestions.



Dean..

Dear Dean, and Tam,

Yes I did forget/leave out the live Salzburg VPO 1950 Eroica, which I quite agree was much better than simply fine! It was issued by EMI in the Salburger Festspieldokumente Serie, primary published by the Festival Promoters, and is currently deleted, and so something of a dead end currently! The coupling is a deeply controversial reading of the Third and Fifth Brandenburg Concertos with full symphonic scale String Orchestra and Soloists drawn from the VPO with Furtwangler playing a very big piano in the Fifth!

This is facinating, but hardly mainstream Bach playing! The album consisted of two CDs ...

More for Furtwangler afficionados than necessarily for those who love Bach's music, perhaps!!!

George

Hi Guys,


Just listening to the Sir Charles Mackerras SCO box set which I bought for a nice £20 from HMV. Just thought I'd let Tam know I'm listening to his advice this time.



Dean..

May I offer a radical thought? Two Saturdays ago I listened to a Radio Three broadcast of the Fifth on period instruments led by Jos van Immerseel. It impressed me immensely! In fact apart from my favourite 1955 Klemperer performance it was the best I have heard [read: I liked it the best, which I have heard] on records!

That is part of a complete set in brand new recordings offered, I believe, at Budget price. I intend to get this. I have never found an HIP set of Beethoven Symphonies that came close to pleasing me, but this performance did so, and not just a little!

ATB from George

Second half of the cycle tonight 6 to 9 its been interesting so far especially hearing certain symphonies for the first time.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

Do you like them all equally, or did a fvourite emerge?

I think my favourites change almost from day to day!

George

Hi George,


At the moment I've found the 4th, 5th & 9th have stood out and grabbed me the most but as you say with more listens that might change as the 2nd, 4th, 7th & 8th are new to me and I have found Classical takes a few plays before I get a grip on whats going on if that makes sense.



Dean..

Dear Dean,

I love the Fourth especially. Not more than the Fifth, perhaps, but it is a lovely and fairly gentle piece, which packs an emotional punch even so!

Great to read your posts!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
May I offer a radical thought? Two Saturdays ago I listened to a Radio Three broadcast of the Fifth on period instruments led by Jos van Immerseel. It impressed me immensely! In fact apart from my favourite 1955 Klemperer performance it was the best I have heard [read: I liked it the best, which I have heard] on records!
ATB from George

Well, I have heard exerpts from it here:

http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/

and sharing your enthusiasm I am going to acquire it within foreseeable time.

ATB Poul

Dear Dean,

Please do email me. I have some rare and fine Furtwangler recordings in Beethoven I want to send you as a kick-off gift to help cement your enjoyment of Beethoven's music!

George