I was hoping someone could point me to a particularly good cd of this piece. Thanks!

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

I'll get shot - nevermind. I guess you are looking for a decent recording quality, that's why I'm leaving aside all Mengelbergs, Kleibers and Furtwänglers.

Oh and you could also give a listen to Karl Böhm's painfully slow but breathtaking 1981 recording. I'll get shot again.

Cheese

Gardner does it for me and have seen Rattle conduct it which was mind blowing but I'm not convinced by his recording with the BPO.

Tom
Actively enjoying it all

Thanks guys

I would prefer a good recording b/c the one problem I have with classical music is that I feel like I'm a 1000 rows back, sitting on a street outside the venue. Anyway, I appreciate your help and plan to go shopping tonight.

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

Dear Aric,

The two performancers that really get under the skin of this music in my view are Otto Klemperer and Wilhelm Furtwangler, both of whom were captured in remarkable live performances with the Philharmonia (in the Royal Festival in 1957 and at Lucerne in 1954 respectively). Klemperer has the benifit of possibly the best chorus to have recorded the symphony, while the Lucerne Festwokenchor are remarkable as well. Naturally the Philharmonia Orchestra is wonderful. At that time it was truely in the top league of the world's orchestras, though some might say things were better in the US at the time.

Don't fear for the recordings, and there is no risk that you will find yourself too far back. The labels are Tahra (France) for the Furtwangler and Testament (GB) for the Klemperer. The same month Klemperer also made the famous studio recording, rightfully still available on EMI. Both the Klemperer recordings are in very the fine stereo of the period before spot "mikery" took over. The Furwangler is in mono, but has the greatest clarity, and no techinical problems except one tiny pitch wobble (a fraction of a second) in the Finale.

Furtwangler is predictably individual in his approach, and not everone will warm to his style nowadays, but Klemperer is a great surprise if one only knows his legend: Slow, monumental, (dare one say it, occasionally dull), rugged. The truth is that both the 1957 performances are as fast as Toscanini's late RCA recording, but incredibly humane and clear. No excessive drive here, but a startling fleetness the predates the period movement by 20 years. The Chorus is wonderful and the correct tempo relationships (as also in the Furwangler) are maintained in the Scherzo. Boehm lets that fall to pieces. It simply colapses into its component sections, rather like poor Bruckner conducting can reduce his works to bolt-together compositions. Karajan is far slicker and totally organised, but his choruses is no match for the Philharmonia for klemperer, which was trained by Wilhelm Pitz. He was for years the chorus trainer at Bayreuth, and a martinet who invariable achieved a wonderful discipline with tremendous musical qualities, and the kind of tuning and tone that is a huge rarity.

Among modern recordings (read digital) I admire the work of David Zinman with the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, though here the musicianship is far less individual. The recordings are clear cut rather than spectacular (throughout the cycle) and come at bargain price on Arte Nova. This has the interesting bonus of being performed in the New Barenreiter Edition, and if you get it you are in for a surprise in the finale. There is an alternative version, which Beethoven subsequently amended to what we know today. It's worth getting for that alone.

Among far worse recordings, technically, concider Erich Kleiber's recording done in Vienna for Decca, and Furtwangler himself left several live recordings, two of which I am very fond of: 1942 (or 1943?) done in Stockholm (Konsertforetnings Orchester and very fine too), which has a great lucidity and somehow brings out the rhythmic impetus of the music with its vast cross-curents more than any other performance I know and also has a wonderful Viennese Quartet, while in May 1953 the Vienna Phil performed it with virtually the same Quartet and the Concert Choir of the State Opera on home turf in the Musickverein, and this has perhaps the most central (quicker in the slow movement than usual) Furtwangler recorded performance. The recording is clear and without balance problems or peaking, but nothing like as fine as the Lucerne perfoemance from twelve months later.

I hope you will forgive these thoughts, tendered in all humility, Fredrik fiske

I love this place: ask a question and you are inundated with knowledge

Thank you Fredrik for your thorough reply! Some of the recordings you speak of are old and I wonder if they are offered on cd? I suppose I would like to strike a balance between the quality of the recording and the quality of the musicians. Having said that, if you were stuck in a remote place and could only have one copy of Beethoven's 9th, which would you choose?

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Aric:
I love this place:...

Thank you Fredrik for your thorough reply! Some of the recordings you speak of are old ... if you were stuck in a remote place and could only have _one_ copy of Beethoven's 9th, which would you choose?

Cheers,

Aric

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Dear Aric,

The safe one among those I describe is the EMI studio recording under Klemperer. It is a remarkable performance, and the recording is vintage, natural stereo. Nothing flashy, but very straight forward. You will be surprised by the way the performers are layed out. From the audience view-point: The first violins on the left, the seconds on the right and so on in the style Beethoven would have recognised, but something most people get foxed by is that the basses are on the left, immediately behind the first violin! This is how all orchestras (except the Vienna Phil, which uniquely placed the basses right at the back in the middle behind the woodwinds) were till the '30s!

The one I would venture you "risk" is the Furtwangler in Lucerne. It is a wonderful, rather sad performance, with some of the best wind and horn playing to be heard. Dennis Brain who is first horn is so characterful, and the same goes for the rest of the winds and brass. The Scherzo is nigh incredible. Of course there are on or two little hiccups, but nothing to get worried about and the recording is as fine as you could wish, but mono, if that is no good for you. [Avoid like the plague the frightful EMI effort done live in Bayreuth at the reopeneing of Wagner's Opera House. It must be the worst commercial live recording to have escaped the producer's booth! The engineers were beside themselves because the management would not allow the microphones to be visible and the effect shows]. If you can run to two get the live Klemperer as well. It electrifying. Hard to believe that this could be done. Klemperer was a giant and at his best in this performance. Naturally the recording reflects the very dry acoustics then prevalent in the Festival Hall, and so the result may please less than the studio recording even though musically it has the drama and continuity only really possible in concert conditions. You are definately not in the 1000th row in this one!

On the other hand my favourite is the Stockholm performance. Like Klemperer it is lythe, quite fast, but sadly dogged by a fairly poor recording. It once was out on CD on Music and Arts, which is US based. I have re-edited the version on Tahra, because the British [who said the Germans invented the tape recorder?] tape recorder caused one or two pitch problems. I have fixed these, and the result is rather listenable. Very well balanced and distortion-free, but more medium wave than VHF if you see what I mean. But musically it is in another league. If you like I could send you a disc of my edited version to go with whatever choice you make. You will appreciate that the
original, with pitch variations was unlistenable to a player. But it would make a nice counter weight to anything else you choose.

Please don't think you have to take any notice of me. I am totally mad about music, but that does not mean that my thoughts mean anything.

Both Klemperer recordings are currently available in the UK: Live on Testament, and studio on EMI Classics. You may struggle to get Tahra in the US, as I think it has been eaten by Deutche Harmonia Mundi, who may well have deleted most of the catalogue.

Kindest regards, Fredrik

quote:

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if you were stuck in a remote place and could only have _one_ copy of Beethoven's 9th, which would you choose?

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I have nothing like Fredrik's depth of knowledge, but Beethoven's 9th is a particular favourite and I would go to the desert island with the EMI Klemperer.

If you're looking for a more recent recording, consider the Philippe Herreweghe conducting the Champs Elysees Orchestra (1999). It's not quite as fantastic as those older recordings, but it's quite respectable in its own right.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

If for no other reason than the chorus, don't be put off by the unfashionable status of Solti's Chicago SO version. The sound quality is superb, and it's widely available secondhand for next to nothing on LP. I think there's a new pressing available too.

Hey Thanks everyone

You have all been a big help. Sometime here in the next few days I WILL get out to the music shop and pick up a copy...or maybe two.

Fredrik, I would love to trouble you for a copy if it's not too terribly much of a bother. Your knowledge on this matter is very extensive and I was wondering why recording engineers chose to go away from stereo recordings (for classical) to open mic recordings? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

Again, I really appreciate everyone's help.

Regards,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

The DG version (late 60's?), Von Karajan w. Berlin Philharmonic. It was the one featured in "A Clockwork Orange", if that's any help.

Dear Aric,

I have sent you a message, in your Private Topics folder (or whatever it is called).

Fredrik

Dear Basil,

Sounds a bit like Newton and Leibnitz. The BBC were doing live recording for delayed relay from 1929 on the Blatnerphone tape recorder. It was this same style of machine that the Swedish Radio used to record longer broadcasts before transfer in most cases to acetate disc, because the tape was both re-usable and very expensive. It seem that the Furtwangler performance done on the 8th of December 1943 in Stockholm survived on the original tape. So (and I have not looked at the link) I guess there was something parallel going on here, even if the the Magnetophon is regarded as the first proper tape recorder.

I'll look at you link sometime as I am fascinated by this sort of thing!

Kind regards, Fredrik Fiske

Dear Fredrik,

The Blatnerphone was a development of the wire recorder.

quote:

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Later Developments in Magnetic Recording
Lee de Forest tried to apply audio amplifiers using the audion to the Telegraphone but no practical system resulted.

In the early 1920s German inventor Curt Stille modified the Telegraphone to use electronic amplification. The intended application was for speech such as telephone recording and as a dictation machine.

There followed various developments to the wire recorder, such as the Dailygraph and Blattnerphone. The Blattnerphone used steel tape instead of wire. It was used to record radio programmes prior to broadcast.

---

Also, I'd be interested in your opinion of Karajan's 1947 recording of the Ninth with the Vienna Philharmonic and the 1955 with the Philharmonia.


Aric, Don't limit yourself to a single recording of this work.

quote:

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Originally posted by Basil:

Dear Fredrik,

The Blatnerphone was a development of the wire recorder.

The Blattnerphone used steel tape instead of wire...


Also, I'd be interested in your opinion of Karajan's 1947 recording of the Ninth with the Vienna Philharmonic and the 1955 with the Philharmonia.


...

---

Quickie [that was the idea, sorry], Dear Basil,

Well I thought the Blatnerphone used tape, not wire, and am fascinated to read this was steel tape. Thanks for that bit of gen.

As for Karajan, I have never made an exhaustive study of his many Beethoven recordings. I've heard the Vienna recording of the Choral on a transfer to LP done presumably about the time he died at the end of the '80s. It did not engage me beyond a certain feeling that it was, as playing, quite disciplined. I may be wrong as this is going back quite a long time ago. As for the Philharmonia recording, I think I have come across some of this, the earliest of the complete Karajan cycles, even longer ago, but mainly the Karajan I knew at that time was the 60s Berlin set on DG. I never liked what seemed like very distant recordings compared to say, Beecham in the Seventh, Furtwangler in the Erioca, or Klemperer in the Choral, all on EMI, or Kleiber in the Pastoral on Decca. After these Karajan's actual music making seemed pretty dull, and, while I would not now say the Beecham was particularly fine, and also taking in Bruno Walter's work, I spent the best part of twenty years virtually listening to any recording I could lay my hands on from these extra-ordinary musicians (among many, but obviously not all, others!) often also studying the scores intensively to see how carefully things were followed! Really I never thought anything that I have heard from Karajan since did much to convince me I was wrong about his music making even in my childhood and adolescence. Toscanini was another whose work I only found variably successful, and even that has not changed, though I really enjoy the ageing Maestro's reading of the Missa Solemnis on RCA; it was never a question of dislike followed by ignoring, but a massive curiosity and fascination with the differences possible in readings of the same great works. I always considered the music far more important than the artists, but crucial that the artist had a great and strong vision of the music, one that lead you on inexorably into the heart and meaning of the music. That is my definition of what i would call great music making.

Really it is only what I found found to be durable in my affection and admiration that causes me to make the recomendations that I posted above. In other words I never was, and have never become, a Karajan admirer, which is a subjective view to some extent I guess! I think we live in very fortunate times in terms of recordings, because there is so much chance to listen to great music making and decide if we like it for ourselves. Which is surely the point!

Kindest regards, Fredrik Fiske

[This message was edited by Fredrik Fiske on Wed 22 September 2004 at 7:54.]

Well, the Solti version is on its way.

It was free so...

Cheers,

Aric

Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.

Before you plunge, try and hear the new Norrington on Hannsler. If it's to your taste after a sample it will provide tremendous insights.

Enjoy

I'm late to this I know, but the two best I've heard are Karajan's, 1962 and 1977, both on DG and both now cheaply available. I have difficulty deciding which one (they both have their individual strengths), so I compromise by having both! I've heard many earlier version and many later versions, and many are excellent, but I always end up back with this duo. Karajan is often accused of glossy, superficial performances, and that is often true, but not here. Both have fire in their bellies and reach out and touch the sublime. All together now:

Freude, schöner Gotterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium...

Tones, the man with the golden ear trumpet